TO: BoBaFeat - Body outside Body & Moment of Clarity

[Gruftzwerg]

Hello Min/Max Boards. I'm new here (fresh acc, but reading for a few years) and want to backup a few of my builds published on another board. Further I seek for feedback, so any comments are welcome =) This will be the first of the builds.
Note, that the text is only copy&paste. atm, but I way change it in future for better visibility and reading when I have time for it^^

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This is just a Theoretical Optimization build and not meant to play. Only if you want a race between your DM and you (can & will he kill you before you become godlike? I would assume so

Hi everyone, I want to show you some refreshed old TO cheese I stepped upon a few days ago. The goal of this build(s) is(/are) to get near pun-puns power-level in 20 levels.

The cheese comes from the spell "Body outside Body" mainly. I spent the last week with tinkering cheese around the spell and googling for additional abuse information. I haven't played a wu-jen so far and didn't even know about the spell a week ago, but the abuse potential is so obvious, that it was just a matter of time until I got results.


This was the 1st thread about a Beholder Mage build relying on BoB cheese, which inspired
me to play a bit with BoB around myself.

LordofProcrastination's Dirty Tricks

After I got interested into BoB builds, Void Disciples 4th lvl ability did come into my mind and I started to google again and hit these 2 threads/builds.

Dolly-the-8-round-God
&
3-5-New-TO-abuses

Both builds rely on the use of Archmages SLA-garanting class ability. But imho you don't need this to get the cheese. You just need many BoB clones, the "Moment of Clarity" ability of Void Disciple to give temporary feats and access to 9th level spells to pull of the cheese.

"BoBaFeat" minimal requirements:

- able to cast "Body outside Body"(7th)

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Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Wu Jen 7,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 10 ft.
Effect: 1 duplicate/5 levels
Duration: 1 round/2 levels
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

- clones have 1/4 Hp
- clones can't cast spells or use spell trigger items
- clones can use SLAs
- clones have all your class lvl and abilities, talents, racials, stats (expect "casting spells" and the lower Hp)

- Void Disciple 4 ("Moment of Clarity" ability)

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- give target ally any feat (with the exception of ancestor feats)
or
- give target ally ranks(!) in a skill equal to the associated attribute modifier of that skill
- duration: Void Disciple lvl / rounds

- have 9th level spell-slots

This will lead to a build like this (lvl20 needed to hit 9th lvl spell access):
a) Wu Jen X / Void Disciple 4 / Yyyyy X
or if you don't want to be limited to Wu Jen Spell list
b) Wizard X / Void Disciple 4 / Wyrm Wizard 2 / Yyyyy X

This is much less restricting compared to the other builds. You have 9-11 levels where you can insert any class witch adds full casting progression for your base casting class. As said, you don't need Archmage to make it work and here is how the build works:


BoBaFeat LvL 20
(we take option b with the Wizard casting and go straight wizard for the remaining level, for a simple example)

1) cast "Body outside Body" (you maybe need to cast it 2 or 3 times to have enough clones for the start)
2) order 6 (or 3 of em twice) of your clones to give you "Improved Spell Capacity [Epic]" temporary with their "Moment of Clarity ability" . you have now a 15th level spellslot.
3) order other clones to give you Silent Spell, Still Spell, Quicken Spell and finally "Innate Spell: Body outside Body"

Now, you have "Body outside Body" at will and are set to break the game with your unlimited amount of Clones.

- unlimited amount of Clones
- use clones and repeat the process to give you all spells you know as SLA at WILL (!)
- since your clones only have a restriction of casting spells, they can use all Spells as SLA at Will now
- give you all feats (only ancestor feats are forbidden, EPIC NOT! if the DM argues that you need to be lvl 21, go for Dragonwrought Kobold. Being a normal dragon of age, qualifies you for epic feats)
- due to all feats, you get unlimited Stats (epic +1 feats)
- unlimited stats + Moment of Clarity = unlimited skill ranks (!) + unlimited stat bonus on any skill
- unlimited amount of Quicken Spells per round (due to unlimited Multispell epic feats)
- unlimited HP (HP feats & unlimited CON bonus)
- to increase the amount of cones per spell/SLA use, give yourself "Spell Stowaway: Body outside Body". now every time someone in 300feet range casts (or uses SLA) BoB, you and all clones in range get the effect for free. we have raised the clone production exponentially sereal times.

BoBaFeat can now produce enough clones to fill the multiverse in a blink of an eye. Each of em a demigod, obeying the only one and real BoBaFeat. I think he could befriend with pun-pun.


The question at the end is: What could you fill in the remaining plain wizard levels as mention above. Which PrC has full spellprogression and usefull (after having all feats) abilities to add to this build? Is there anything that would make a difference? One of the other threads/builds relies on Jade Phoenix Mage, which has some nice fluffy abilities, but nothing that really makes a difference imho. Any other ideas? (more Void Disciple for longer duration on Moment on Clarity would be a bit more efficient, but still not making any difference in power lvl)


I hope you enjoyed the BoBaFeat build and credits also go to the mentioned threads, pun-pun and their inspiration that lead to this thread. Feel free to comment and add your thoughts. I would appreciate it.

[SorO_Lost]

Hello Min/Max Boards. I'm new here (fresh acc, but reading for a few years)

Hi, welcome to MMX.

This is just a Theoretical Optimization build and not meant to play. Only if you want a race between your DM and you (can & will he kill you before you become godlike? I would assume so

Hmm... Disclaimers...
Disclaimer: The following post is another seemingly bitter SorO post but is actually meant to be informative and to be taken lightly.

This was the 1st thread about a Beholder Mage build relying on BoB cheese

Fun fact, PoO/Polymorph/AlterSelf never state they change your Race, I mean sure you lose Racial Skill modifiers but keep your Wis/Cha scores which would include Racial Modifiers. Alter Self sums this up nicely in a single sentence, "You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race." which you'd think is a problem without the PrC throwing the word "true" around.

After I got interested into BoB builds, Void Disciples 4th lvl ability did come into my mind and I started to google again and hit these 2 threads/builds.

You should have gotten a lot of Leadership & Void Disciple threads talking about PrC entry. *shrugs*

- clones can use SLAs

Ehh... It never says that. I think last time I seen a debate like this someone was using the Warlock's entry to make a point and if you're reaching that far to make a point we might as well talk about how the Spell-Stitched Template says it gives the ability to cast spells. In the future, I'd treat it as a slippery slope. Something you can probably get away with in TO but since casting Silence as an SLA can meet Requirements for casting the spell Silence, I'd keep in mind that "cast spells" doesn't always synonymously mean "spellcasting".

As said, you don't need Archmage to make it work

Something else to consider is a Psion with Psychic Reformation & Fission/Fusion. BoB can also be substituted with any other cloning trick, like the Core-Only Mirror of Opposition and Readied Dominate Monster if your Will Save sucks.

go for Dragonwrought Kobold. Being a normal dragon of age, qualifies you for epic feats)

The full statement is "Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels." and it never grants them the ability to use the Feat.

My favorite nitpick through is it doesn't actually give you the ability to take it. I mean I choose to take Improved Spell Capacity on every character at the first level. The rules don't let me actually take it, but it's still my number one choice.

Feel free to comment and add your thoughts. I would appreciate it.

I feel like Void Release & the Sage's you are your own ally comment should deserve an honorable mention given from where you're from. GitP has no idea that you can create a muscle wizard without Bastard & Bloodline's Lost Tradition Feat but it really is possible to use your Strength Modifier for your Spell DCs using 1st party materials.

[Gruftzwerg]

After I got interested into BoB builds, Void Disciples 4th lvl ability did come into my mind and I started to google again and hit these 2 threads/builds.

You should have gotten a lot of Leadership & Void Disciple threads talking about PrC entry. *shrugs*

I searched for BoB + void disciple, not sole VD. That makes the difference. I know about other VD combos. But I was searching for BoB+VD sole at that moment.

- clones can use SLAs

Ehh... It never says that. I think last time I seen a debate like this someone was using the Warlock's entry to make a point and if you're reaching that far to make a point we might as well talk about how the Spell-Stitched Template says it gives the ability to cast spells. In the future, I'd treat it as a slippery slope. Something you can probably get away with in TO but since casting Silence as an SLA can meet Requirements for casting the spell Silence, I'd keep in mind that "cast spells" doesn't always synonymously mean "spellcasting".

First BoB says, that the clones can do everything you can do expect cast spells and have only nonmagic mundane stuff.

Second, the rule is that "SLAs may count as being able to cast a certain spell to meet requirements". This is "Specific Trumps General", but it doesn't become a general rule. General, those are 2 different things. And since BoB doesn't list SLAs in its exception part, the clones may use em. The spells description has nothing to do with requirements and thus the rule doesn't apply here.
You could argue about RAI, but since TO relies on RAW abuse, I guess this should be fine

As said, you don't need Archmage to make it work

Something else to consider is a Psion with Psychic Reformation & Fission/Fusion. BoB can also be substituted with any other cloning trick, like the Core-Only Mirror of Opposition and Readied Dominate Monster if your Will Save sucks.

I still need to get more into 3.5 psionics. I even got the book since years, but somehow I didn't bother to take my time for it. But I'll remember this and will give it a look when it's time..^^

go for Dragonwrought Kobold. Being a normal dragon of age, qualifies you for epic feats)

The full statement is "Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels." and it never grants them the ability to use the Feat.

My favorite nitpick through is it doesn't actually give you the ability to take it. I mean I choose to take Improved Spell Capacity on every character at the first level. The rules don't let me actually take it, but it's still my number one choice.

I know what you mean, you still need to meet the other requirements like high ability/skill scores and stuff. For Improved Spell Capacity the requirement is to be able to cast the highest lvl spells available to your class, not character. That's why I have listed access to 9th lvl spells as requirement for the build .
Further any ability score and skill rank requirement can be fulfilled with the help of Moment of Clarity. For ability scores you got the epic +1 feats and with them you can get unlimited skill ranks with MoC. Sure, getting "ALL" feats would get a bit iffy, but for the most of em it is not a real problem to meet the requirements.

__

Ty for your reply & your interest to read the entire build =)