Author Topic: BoVD Alternate Curse  (Read 9732 times)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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BoVD Alternate Curse
« on: February 15, 2012, 05:35:48 PM »
BoVD has some alternate curses in the opening chapter.
1 of these increases a monster one age category.
Hello Dragons !!

Let's say you are a 1 HD 1st level dragon wyrmling, whatever color.
Not a dragonwrought or kobold (too bad).
Mercantile feat, and that theme-y thing that gives some more gold.
You can buy 3 castings of Bestow Curse, right off the bat.
So your baby dragon is now age category 4.

During 1st level, you can afford 6 more castings = age category 10.
During 2nd level, you can afford ? more castings = age category ??
etc ... (this doesn't include the 1/level discounted item)
At will item = 3*5*2000*.75= 22,500 gp

Here's where things get interesting.
Advanced Dragons have virtual age categories.
So far as I know, there aren't any other "virtual"
age-type rules in Draconomicon or Races of Dragons.
I might be wrong, but it's a very limited application.

The SRD uses the virtual category, forwards and backwards.
Meaning the HD and the age category define each other.
EDIT --- jumped the gun on this part. The SRD doesn't have this.

So this appears to be uncapped.
And those Improved Spell Capacity feats look oh so yummy.
Anyway, it's T.O.  :evillaugh
This isn't happening in a home game, at all.


EDIT changed the 2nd level 7 and 17 to ? and ??
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 04:45:44 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline Bastian

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2012, 09:24:55 PM »
The SRD uses the virtual category, forwards and backwards.
Meaning the HD and the age category define each other.
The rules in the SRD say you gain a "'virtual age category' for every 3 Hit Dice" but they say nothing about gaining Hit Dice for every virtual age category. Thus gaining Hit Dice gives you virtual age categories but gaining virtual age categories does not give you Hit Dice, at least according to the SRD.

Offline Scottzar

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2012, 11:53:56 PM »
The SRD uses the virtual category, forwards and backwards.
Meaning the HD and the age category define each other.
The rules in the SRD say you gain a "'virtual age category' for every 3 Hit Dice" but they say nothing about gaining Hit Dice for every virtual age category. Thus gaining Hit Dice gives you virtual age categories but gaining virtual age categories does not give you Hit Dice, at least according to the SRD.
Still increases other stuff, but this needs addressing.

Trapped bestow-curse spell components pouch anyone?
Assume that any rules statements I make are under full RAW.
Common sense, game balance, or an enjoyable experience need not apply.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2012, 01:21:43 AM »
Old news, been saying this for months, Mister Lamp even thanked me in his TD guide, etc.

Here is a better type up of abusing River's Ravages that doesn't try to stack Bestow Curse multiple times (which I'm pretty sure you can't)

Code: [Select]
Wyrmling Loredrake Steel Dragon, 4 HD, +2 LA (buyoff allows for one of these to be dropped asap), CR 2, 1 year old.
Feats: Precarious Apprentice(river's ravages), Practiced Spellcaster.

1 - Action: Uses PA, rolls 1d20+4 vs DC 8 (80% chance of success).
Causality: Ages 8 years, it is now Very Young (6~15yrs).
Causality: obtains 3 HD (+3 bab, +19.5 hp, +1 saves, new feat elder giant magic), +2 Str, Int & Wis.
Causality: Gains two levels of sorcerer spellcasting (+2 to cl), access to 2nd level spells, learns River's Ravages.

2 - Action: Casts River's Ravages as a spell known, CL is now 3 (base) + 2 (lore) + 2 (PS) +3 (egm) for a total of 20 years making it 21.
Causality: It is now Young (16~25yrs) and Medium sized and gains two wing attacks.
Causality: obtains 3 HD (+3 bab, +19.5 hp, +2 saves, new feat reserves of strength), +2 Str, Con, Int & Cha.
Causality: Gains two levels of sorcerer spellcasting (+2 to cl), access to 3rd level spells, 1 of 4 2nd level spell slots used.

3 - Action: Casts River's Ravages again, CL is now 5 (base) + 2 (lore) + 3 (ps) + 3 (egm) + 3 (ros) for +32 years.
Causality: It is now Juvenile (26~50yrs).
Causality: obtains 3 HD (+3 bab, +19.5 hp, +1 saves, new feat arcane thesis), +2 Str, Int & Wis.
Causality: Gains two levels of sorcerer spellcasting (+2 to cl), access to 4th level spells, learns Suffer The Flesh, 2/6 2nd level used.

4 - Action: Casts River's Ravages again, CL is now 7 (base) + 2 (lore) + 4 (ps) + 2 (thesis) + 3 (egm) + 3 (ros) + 4 (spell) for +50 years.
Causality: It is now a total of 51 years old making it a Young Adult (51~100yrs).
Causality: obtains 3 HD (+3 bab, +19.5 hp, +2 saves, new feat any), +2 Str, Con, Int & Cha.
Causality: Gains two levels of sorcerer spellcasting (+2 to cl), access to 5th level spells, learns Bestow Curse, 4/6 2nd level used.

5 - Action: Casts Bestow Curse and chooses the Alternative Curse in BoVD to age it's self one entire age category.
Causality: It is now an Adult (101yrs old) and Large sized and gains one tail attack.
Causality: obtains 3 HD (+3 bab, +19.5 hp, +1 saves, new feat any), +2 Str, Int & Qis.
Causality: Gains two levels of sorcerer spellcasting (+2 to cl), access to 6th level spells, 4/6 2nd and 1/6 4th level used.

6+ - Actions: Cants as many 1 hour per CL buffs as it possible. Which includes and is not limited to: Heart of Air, Greater Mage, Heart of Water, Control Temperature, Nondetection, Heart of Earth, Greater Mighty Wallop, Quick Potion(greater magic fang), Quick Potion(forstfold), Quick Potion<scales of the sealord), Heart of Fire, Refusal, Shadow Guardians, & Superior Resistance.
Causality: OMFG Powerful, and still only CR 2 after breaking the curse and letting RR time out.

Rest Of The Day - Actions: Killing adventurers stupid enough to come near it.
Causality: Gets tired and takes a nap letting his 13 guardians defend him, assuming people can even walk into it's lair to begin with.

P.S. Limited Wish(mantle of icy soul) permanently gives the Steel the [Cold] subtype making it immune to Cold effects, it's already immune to fire so no downsides. Why not throw that into the mix? XP costs are covered in aging, probably. idk Haven't cared to dig into monster's with more HD have more XP than others and kind of considered it a given since their ECL sets requirements for XP and level drain puts you back at half way marks or w/e.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 01:27:52 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2012, 04:32:48 PM »
My apologies to SorO_Lost, I missed that.

(probably) No stacking of Bestow Curse is noted.
You can definitely Bestow Curse a target a second time
with one of the other possible curses ... yes / maybe ??

I also want to backtrack on my age category counts.
If you start as a 1st level of a racial class progression,
you are age category 1 , but you are not all of age category 1.
The first casting of Bestow Curse, might (because I'm not certain)
just put you at the top of age category 1
... or it might put you at age category 2.


So the dragon guide has more rules to "virtual age categories"
located in Draconomicon. I've no access so I'm out of luck.


Bastian ... yeah, I noticed the SRD says it only the one way.
There is more crunch description in the Epic book.
I should get it out for more text quotes, helpful to my p.o.v.


**

Hey, you could be a 1st level Epic Dragon racial prog just starting out.
One (totally rules legit) Bestow Curse later you're category 2,
and with money leftover for a Masterwork Handle Animal item.
You know, for all those horses you buy and breed for snacks.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2012, 04:42:51 PM »
... 6+ - Actions:  ... and still only CR 2 after breaking the curse and letting RR time out. ...
Ah.
See I'd wanna keep the Curse to maintain all the age category goodies.
You wanna be CR 2, and stomp things and mop the floor with them.
 :plotting
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2012, 05:59:24 PM »
You can definitely Bestow Curse a target a second time
Same spell is no match, so I've always taken it max one age from it. However Greater Bestow Curse certainly can invoke a second one easy enough.

Also Hasten the End (another DL spell) uses Concentration for the duration and ages you every round, combined with multiple effects to handle a spell's concentration it is near limitless I think, well other than death from old age unless you're immortal but then you don't age...

... 6+ - Actions:  ... and still only CR 2 after breaking the curse and letting RR time out. ...
Ah.
See I'd wanna keep the Curse to maintain all the age category goodies.
You wanna be CR 2, and stomp things and mop the floor with them.
 :plotting
RR can be recast again and again so the "CR 2" Dragon runs around with 19HD & 6th level spells. If Greater Bestow Curse were obtained some how then would be able to hit epic progression. Which is the real goal I'm after.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2012, 10:00:55 AM »
(probably) No stacking of Bestow Curse is noted.
You can definitely Bestow Curse a target a second time
with one of the other possible curses ... yes / maybe ??

Well, since we are in the BoVD, there is the Dying Curse. Second best allows for 10 Greater Bestow Curses, best is "DM's discretion". So you could have an argument for 5-10 GBC's to stack their effects, thus adding ~20 age categories. (there are ways to trick someone into putting a curse on someone who would benefit)

Here is a better type up of abusing River's Ravages that doesn't try to stack Bestow Curse multiple times (which I'm pretty sure you can't)
Ya'know, I could see that spells effect being interpreted to only cause the dragon to grow physically, but having the mental stats and CL stuff stay the same as what they were. It even specifically states that you do not gain any new knowledge, or have any change in mental stats.

So you could have it with all of the physical abilities, but would not have the CL to do the loop, and would not get smarter.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 11:02:06 AM by ariasderros »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2012, 11:29:08 PM »
Well, since we are in the BoVD, there is the Dying Curse. Second best allows for 10 Greater Bestow Curses, best is "DM's discretion". So you could have an argument for 5-10 GBC's to stack their effects, thus adding ~20 age categories. (there are ways to trick someone into putting a curse on someone who would benefit)
Stacking Greater Bestowed Curses would be the same exact thing as stacking normal curses.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.
However, Greater Bestow Curse isn't Bestow Curse so they can stack together for a combined +2 to age (or +3, solid point to the DM that greater working on a second target should be stronger, but that's house rules).


Ya'know, I could see that spells effect being interpreted to only cause the dragon to grow physically, but having the mental stats and CL stuff stay the same as what they were. It even specifically states that you do not gain any new knowledge, or have any change in mental stats.

So you could have it with all of the physical abilities, but would not have the CL to do the loop, and would not get smarter.
It would work as a balancing house rule certainly, but be aware of you're little nerf there applies to much more than TDs. Even aging Humans gain +3 to mental scores for just lofting around in a coma for sixty years or so.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2012, 05:24:19 PM »
What about duplicating the effect with
Limited Wish , Wish , Greater Anyspell , Miracle , Bend Reality , Reality Revision
etc ... or similar ??


**


Here's what Epic Level Handbook says about age category:
{ ... yes I know it's bad looking data entry / and shorthanded too / check the book out at p.179 and 180 / it'll make more sense ... }

Age Category ... is the section header
"virtual age category" ... seems to require the HD first
virtual age category ... without the quotes , but HD still comes before
effective age category ... new term and for basic (?) math
Abilities ... per age category ... now using it in general
" ... calculation ... " ... this fits with PLZ's bloodline thread "calculation" definition
age category per hit dice ... not as clear as the first two v.a.g. semi-quotes

Size: ... speaks about advancement in general
age category ... causes the size increase
(hit dice) ... connected to the age category
{this is repeated 6 times}

Breathe Weapon:
virtual age category ... causes breathe weapon improvement
age category ... causes breathe weapon improvement

SR: age category , age category

Ability Scores:
virtual age category , age category

SA:
age category , age category , virtual age category

CR:
age category , age category

SAMPLE:
virtual age category


**


OK. When I read this, I see the terms being used
interchangeably ... as in they all mean the same thing.
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Offline Halinn

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2012, 05:36:32 PM »
Well, since we are in the BoVD, there is the Dying Curse. Second best allows for 10 Greater Bestow Curses, best is "DM's discretion". So you could have an argument for 5-10 GBC's to stack their effects, thus adding ~20 age categories. (there are ways to trick someone into putting a curse on someone who would benefit)
Stacking Greater Bestowed Curses would be the same exact thing as stacking normal curses.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.
However, Greater Bestow Curse isn't Bestow Curse so they can stack together for a combined +2 to age (or +3, solid point to the DM that greater working on a second target should be stronger, but that's house rules).

That section quotes different strengths. Stacking Bestow Curses would be at the same strength.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2012, 07:47:36 PM »
Stacking Greater Bestowed Curses would be the same exact thing as stacking normal curses.
I realize now I worded that poorly. What I was saying was with the highest level effect of the Dying Curse, you could make an argument with your DM to allow one really powerful curse rather than a bunch of weak ones.

Ya'know, I could see that spells effect being interpreted to only cause the dragon to grow physically, but having the mental stats and CL stuff stay the same as what they were. It even specifically states that you do not gain any new knowledge, or have any change in mental stats.

So you could have it with all of the physical abilities, but would not have the CL to do the loop, and would not get smarter.
It would work as a balancing house rule certainly, but be aware of you're little nerf there applies to much more than TDs. Even aging Humans gain +3 to mental scores for just lofting around in a coma for sixty years or so.

A) It would not be a "Houserule"; it is a legitimate interpretation of the way the spell is worded specifically to affect only the body and not the mind.
B) The spell even specifies the human would not get the +3 to the stats.
C) Even a TD could wait around for a few years too. But that isn't the point.

But that is just one of your methods.
Death Ward (or some other means of immunity to negative levels) + Persisted Sonorous Hum (SC) + Hasten the End (DL: HOotS).
Is something I based off of you mentioning that last spell on the old boards. After 12 minutes, your yearling is a Great Wyrm. And a Steel Dragon can thereafter maintain all of that on itself, re-casting 12 minutes earlier every day.
And, of course, all credit to SorO for this.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 07:49:53 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2012, 05:50:50 AM »
What about duplicating the effect with Limited Wish , Wish , Greater Anyspell , Miracle , Bend Reality , Reality Revision etc ... or similar ??
(Greater) Anyspell just lets you prepare Bestow Curse and cast it while the Wish effects replicates the effects of the spell in question as if you had cast it instead. IE Wish being used to cast Bestow Curse is no different than using a Wand to cast Bestow Curse, it's still Bestow Curse no matter how you alter the means in which you cast it.

Secondly, the alternative curses offered is not saying GBC invokes the effects of BC on 1d4+1 family members, but you pick from BC's list, it's still very much GBC without replication.

The spell is a different spell, and it's not replicating it's lesser version in any manner other than providing a similar effect, more on this later.

That section quotes different strengths. Stacking Bestow Curses would be at the same strength.
Since you didn't click on the link, have the rest of the useful text.
Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.
The first half deeply suggests you cannot stack the same spell, been saying that and Awakened after a quick reminder remembered it too. We're past this but glad you could join in pretty late there.

The second half, which is a little more pertinent than the other given my comment on GBC could stack, was mentioned to draw attention to the identical clause. Like Ray of Enfeeblement could impose a -4 Str penalty and so does BC, do they stack? They are totally different spells so yes they do. GBC is giving an equal penalty/bonus as another spell (BC), it's a different spell, it's not actually replicating the other's effect. To me it works.

So my question to you, is what do you have saying other wise?

A) It would not be a "Houserule"; it is a legitimate interpretation of the way the spell is worded specifically to affect only the body and not the mind.
B) The spell even specifies the human would not get the +3 to the stats.
C) Even a TD could wait around for a few years too. But that isn't the point.
A. Justifiable house rules are still house rules.
B. Does it?

(click to show/hide)

C. Of course, more power obtained while rolling out of the egg shell the better. :D

I've mentioned Hasten the End before (it's uncapped!), but Persisted Sonorous Hum is new to me. Source? I've been wondering out to get that one last age boost in for that epic access but 6th level spell access doesn't have Hasten or GBC so the only possible way that I know of is some high CL shenanigans which tend to be less dependent on the caster and more about abusing PrC mixes, mass murder, dozens of underlings, etc. I'd love to find that one last push it needs...

Offline ariasderros

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2012, 11:54:32 AM »
A + B) If you look up to my first post here SorO, My A + B points for the "Houserule vs Interpretation (A)" and "Not gaining mental stats (B)"  are about River's Ravages, not Bestow Curse. So since you quoted the wrong spell, I can't highlight the text in your TL;DR textbox. But yes, River's Ravages specifically states you don't gain mental stats or any other form of mental gain. Most (though I will grant, not all) DM's would say that since the text is so specific about you not gaining any new memories or mental growth that the dragon would not gain any CL improvement. This is Interpretation, not houserule.

Interpretation that is arguable, but valid. Even if you disagree, I stand by it. That's what interpretation is.

But yes, BC and GBC would grant all appropriate benefits. And any change to that would be Houserule.

Sonorous Hum is a 2nd level spell in the SC. Personal Range (thus persist-able w/o any cheese or tricks). 1 round / CL by default. You cast it, then cast any other spell that requires you to maintain concentration "into it". Sonorous Hum then maintains the concentration on the other spell for you.
The way Hasten the End is written makes it seem as if once concentration stops, the spell, and its effects end, causing immediate reversal of all affected attributes. Making it a truly temporary (de)buff. Meaning any DM would be hard pressed to justify an increase to LA.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2012, 07:37:47 PM »
A + B) If you look up to my first post here SorO, My A + B points for the "Houserule vs Interpretation (A)" and "Not gaining mental stats (B)"  are about River's Ravages, not Bestow Curse.
Totally missed that, been talking about BC/GBC this whole time since everyone else is.

I found it now too :p
Quote
The spell does not alter a character’s memories or experiences, and thus does not affect XP, class levels, or the mental ability scores of intelligence, wisdom, and charisma. However, aging a creature’s body in this way subjects it to the physical changes that come with age (see Chapter 6 in the Player’s Handbook); thus, strength, dexterity, and constitution can be affected. A creature’s appearance can also be affected; if the target changes age category, it receives a +5 circumstance bonus to bluff and disguise checks made to conceal its identity.

Interpretation that is arguable, but valid. Even if you disagree, I stand by it. That's what interpretation is.
Ineed, even with the spell trumping on Int/Wiz/Cha, the TD's inherent casting is tied to HD and their HD is tied to age. It's what makes them unique and how this abusive trick works. No XP or Class Levels is required for advancement.

Sonorous Hum is a 2nd level spell in the SC. Personal Range (thus persist-able w/o any cheese or tricks). 1 round / CL by default. You cast it, then cast any other spell that requires you to maintain concentration "into it". Sonorous Hum then maintains the concentration on the other spell for you.
Ahh, upkeep for allowing you to cast those 0 DC Epic Spells while holding the spell, but that's another story...

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: BoVD Alternate Curse
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2012, 02:42:42 PM »
'Nother application for SorO's tactic ...


Dragonwrought Kobold is basically relying on some dm fiat,
to make it be old enough to get the semi-cheesy age trick.

If said DW Kobold is forced to age itself to justify being "old",
it would have to do exactly this trick ... and still be slightly short.
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