Author Topic: Rules Quirks  (Read 23241 times)

Offline Lo77o

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2012, 06:04:33 PM »
You're allowed a reflex save and Evasion against a Fireball dropped on you while you're sleeping or otherwise oblivious to the world around you.

How do you figure that? A sleeping creature is a willing target. So he gets no saves.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2012, 04:24:55 AM »
You're allowed a reflex save and Evasion against a Fireball dropped on you while you're sleeping or otherwise oblivious to the world around you.

How do you figure that? A sleeping creature is a willing target. So he gets no saves.

Cast painless death on them  :devil
 http://dndtools.eu/spells/ghostwalk--94/painless-death--1375/


Dream Element creatures from an old dragon magazine lack a Wisdom score. Doesn't that make them objects, not creatures?
 http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#wisdomWis
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 04:48:20 AM by zook1shoe »
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Offline NiteCyper

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2012, 07:00:00 AM »
[Color] supports that Reflex is irrefutable.

You're allowed a reflex save and Evasion against a Fireball dropped on you while you're sleeping or otherwise oblivious to the world around you.

How do you figure that? A sleeping creature is a willing target. So he gets no saves.
As much as I think that explanation is awesome, the FAQ refutes it. Although I've read the opinions, I have yet to hold a strong opinion against the answers given as a result of FAQs. I have yet to find the source of it as of yet, however. However, the same quotation has been quoted elsewhere, so there is less of a chance that that quote is fake. Help?

That's not the only FAQ answer that refutes it either, but I can't find the other which may have been quoted at EN World. The other said that luck factors into the situation as some random thing that interrupts. A general refutation would be that, inferring from my search of the d20 SRD, "willing" is a term that only applies to spell descriptions.

Quote from: SRD > Magic Overview > Spell Descriptions > Aiming A Spell > Targets or Targets
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

The SRD makes no mention of "willing" under Combat > Combat Statistics > Saving Throws. In contradiction to the assertions of the Reflex saving throw representing luck, there is no mention of luck in the description of Reflex in the same section. This EN World post asserts that Reflex includes luck, and StreamOfTheSky agrees. It does not cite a source.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 07:36:04 AM by NiteCyper »
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Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2012, 10:50:38 AM »
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2012, 11:31:16 AM »
This is the condition that dictates sleep.  You'll note that the wording is "treat dex as 0", not "treat reflex save as fail".  So yes, a sleeping character can succeed at a reflex save.  However, if you make a case that "sleeping" indicates "unconscious", then sleeping creatures are considered willing, which applies only to spells that have the "willing" tag, so they do not get a throw against those spells.  Still would against Fireball.  And still would if "sleeping" does not mean "unconscious", which I don't think it does in the game.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 11:35:27 AM by dman11235 »
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2012, 02:36:26 PM »
To be fair, if you dex is treated as 0, your reflex saves are still losing any previous dex mod, and gaining a -5 penalty...
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2012, 04:51:33 PM »
Yes, but that's not "automatically fail", it's just "likely fail".
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Offline NiteCyper

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2012, 10:49:42 PM »
Tl;dr: Sleeping ≠ unconscious.

This is the condition that dictates sleep.  You'll note that the wording is "treat dex as 0", not "treat reflex save as fail".  So yes, a sleeping character can succeed at a reflex save.  However, if you make a case that "sleeping" indicates "unconscious", then sleeping creatures are considered willing, which applies only to spells that have the "willing" tag, so they do not get a throw against those spells.  Still would against Fireball.  And still would if "sleeping" does not mean "unconscious", which I don't think it does in the game.
Damnit, you're right. What seals the deal is this enumeration:

Quote from: SRD > Condition Summary Index > Condition Summary http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious...
Because it lists both "sleeping" and "unconscious", it is clear that they are mutually exclusive. There is other evidence, being the lack thereof asserting that sleeping is unconscious (but not necessarily vice versa).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 10:56:37 PM by NiteCyper »
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2012, 06:41:07 PM »
My favorite rules quirk, which was pointed out to me by Hanako, is that disintegrate has no effect on trees.

(click to show/hide)
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2012, 07:07:27 PM »
My favorite rules quirk, which was pointed out to me by Hanako, is that disintegrate has no effect on trees.

(click to show/hide)

thats hilarious!!!

a living wood shield can protect you from disintegrate and pyroclastic dragons

trees also don't have Wisdom and Charisma which "all creatures have" and therefore are objects

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#theAbilities
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Offline Averien

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2012, 01:14:03 AM »
This is a bit convoluted, but...

Quote
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
  From the Helpless section.

Quote
A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.
  From ability damage section.

So, if you are helpless, you are by default treated as paralyzed.

Quote
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.

So, you can make only mental actions while you are sleeping.  If you can make a case that making a reflex save is purely mental action, then I guess you get a reflex save while sleeping. 

Offline littha

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2012, 01:29:13 AM »
a living wood shield can protect you from disintegrate and pyroclastic dragons

The shield wouldn't be destroyed... you probably would. Also Pyroclastic dragon breath only targets creatures anyway.

Offline Maat Mons

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2012, 01:42:16 AM »

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2012, 01:59:47 AM »
sleeping … paralyzed

I'm suddenly reminded of some of my worse sleeping experiences.

You're crazy.  Sleep paralysis is responsible for my best sleeping experiences.

This might be because I have no problem with waking up, incapable of movement, only to hear a low voice growl "Go back to sleep," followed by heavy footfalls and the front door slamming.  Or waking up, incapable of movement, only to look over and see my roommate turning into Slender Man.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2012, 02:04:33 AM »
a living wood shield can protect you from disintegrate and pyroclastic dragons

The shield wouldn't be destroyed... you probably would. Also Pyroclastic dragon breath only targets creatures anyway.

living wood tower shield for cover?
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Offline NiteCyper

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2012, 02:22:06 AM »
(click to show/hide)

Creatures capable of taking purely mental actions (such as manifesting powers) can do so.
If B2 is C, then B2 can D. A sleeping character can manifest powers
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 04:20:49 PM by NiteCyper »
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Offline EjoThims

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2012, 08:30:32 AM »
(click to show/hide)

Creatures capable of taking purely mental actions (such as manifesting powers) can do so.
If B2 is C, then B2 can D. A sleeping character can manifest powers

A few seeming errors in your progression.

Offline littha

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2012, 03:35:32 PM »
a living wood shield can protect you from disintegrate and pyroclastic dragons

The shield wouldn't be destroyed... you probably would. Also Pyroclastic dragon breath only targets creatures anyway.

living wood tower shield for cover?

Does not help, Tower shields don't provide cover against targeted spells.
Quote
The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding.
It would save you from the dragon though.

Offline NiteCyper

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2012, 03:59:05 PM »
A helpless character is paralyzed, [...] sleeping, [or] unconscious.
A is B, B2, and B3.

A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier).
A is C.

A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.
C is B.

Fixed that, you had it backwards.

Also, if A = B and A = C, then C = B anyway.

If A = B, A = C, and B = C, then all terms above grant all condition


A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless.
C is B and A.

A paralyzed character [...] can take purely mental actions.
C can D.

B is not necessarily A. B2 isn't necessarily A, B, B3, nor C. In the preceding sentence, B2 interchanged with B3, is. Ergo, an opponent being paralyzed is not premise "to deliver a coup de grace". I don't want to mess with this anymore; I don't want to have to read all of this, right now.

A few seeming errors in your progression.
I didn't think that "A is B" = "A = B", just as "all squares are rectangles" but not vice-versa.

Is there difference between "A is B" and "all As are Bs"? No, "it is traditional to use is rather than are as the copula, hence All A is B rather than All As are Bs."
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 04:23:33 PM by NiteCyper »
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Rules Quirks
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2012, 04:27:30 PM »
It would save you from the dragon though.

that's what i meant

but there's probably some feats that might help against the spells too
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