Author Topic: Spell Level Increasing  (Read 7286 times)

Offline TheGeometer

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Spell Level Increasing
« on: April 05, 2012, 11:42:56 PM »
While we've all heard of the effects that can come from blowing your CL to epic proportions, I haven't heard a lot about what you can do with increased Spell Level (SL). I've found a dozen uses, ranging from broken to extremely broken.

The basic build I always start out with is a level 5 Illumian wizard. He takes the Improved Krau Sigil feat for +2 to SL on 2 spells, and the Enhanced Sigils feat to boost that to +3 (As far as I know, nothing in the wording of either feat prevents Enhanced Sigils from affecting an Improved Sigil). Then he takes Sanctum Spell (I guess this build gets flaws; really, the same concept works at higher levels, so the number of feats doesn't matter a lot), boosting his maximum SL to 7 (a +4 bonus on a 3rd level spell). Now, he can technically cast 7th level spells, which gives him a few options:

Storm Bolt: As long as he keeps a 3rd level spell, the possibility that its effective SL can become 7 allows him to use a 7d6 lightning attack at will. I picked Storm Bolt rather than other reserve feats because it is the only one that neither requires an attack roll nor allows a Reflex save.

Spell Versatility: This transmuter ACF lets the character learn a new spell of up to the highest level spell he can cast, giving him a free 7th level spell at level 5. It's always great to be ahead of the game, especially when it involves making Limited Wishes.

Extra Slot: You gain a spell slot at a level lower than the highest SL you can cast. This means that you get a 6th level slot to fill with anything at least a few levels in advance. Take it a second time, and you could have 9th level spells at level 9. Go even further than that, and persistent shapechange becomes a reality with minimal effort by level 15.

I'm sure that there are tons of other uses that I haven't thought up yet. The possibilities are endless.

Offline dman11235

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Re: Spell Level Increasing
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2012, 11:54:04 PM »
This isn't exactly TO...

Persisted Shape Change is nice, though.  A tad late for true TO though.

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Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Spell Level Increasing
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2012, 12:08:09 AM »
infinities aren't just fantasy, and the speed of light is broken before lunch every day.

Well, this early access paves the way for other strategies. If you use a build that already relies on one of these feats to get early access to a PrC (I use Sanctum Spell that way quite frequently) then a high level spell at a low level couldn't hurt.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 01:33:10 PM by TheGeometer »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Spell Level Increasing
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2012, 01:09:17 AM »
(As far as I know, nothing in the wording of either feat prevents Enhanced Sigils from affecting an Improved Sigil)
You mean other than assuming the feat Improved Sigil (Krau) is an Illumian 's racially granted Sigil power and affected by Enhanced Power Sigils right?

Now, he can technically cast 7th level spells, which gives him a few options
You know, I keep getting pushed more and more into no such thing as early entry really. Like take IS(krau) there: Whenever you gain the ability to cast a new level of spells, you can reassign the spells you've chosen to be enhanced by this feat. For example, a wizard who reaches 3rd level and gains the ability to cast 2nd-level spells may reassign the spells affected by this feat. I mean, if you're treating IS(K)'s bonus as gaining a new spell level than at level 2 it has 'access' to 2nd level spells, just how exactly did it just now gain access to 2nd level spells upon reaching level 3? Intent is clearly demonstrating otherwise.

Then there is Sanctum spell that has a upon cast clause. That is, Magic Missile is still a 1st level spell when prepared, still only requires the ability to cast 1st level spells, it still uses a 1st level slot, and when you go to cast it you're still casting a 1st level spell. It's only after you've gone into casting part it does it start to pretend it's 2nd level which can be interpreted as a little too late there. Likewise the wording is "are calculated according to the adjusted level." makes me think The key word here is “calculate”—it means when you use the level as part of some mathematical determination of the spell’s power or uses. Abilities that say “add your spell level” count, but abilities that say “a spell of level X gains this effect” don’t. per Bloodline rulings.

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Anyway, we've had people run down this area before. Level one with high level Reserve feats, or the better use of early entry. It's just like above people can pop your balloon pretty easy and so it generally doesn't take to well. Versatile Spellcaster is about the only accepted method but even that's on the ropes. Stuff like Loredrake/Dragonspawn/TD-Aging require no loop holes or loose interpretation making them the superior method of things as they can be proven to work exactly as such. And then the reason those don't pop up as much, well the people that suggest use my favorite over the top build in every damn thread faded into the background like they should done long ago but took to long we've already had every single possible combination tossed at us last year making it old and boring news.


Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Spell Level Increasing
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2012, 01:30:42 PM »
(As far as I know, nothing in the wording of either feat prevents Enhanced Sigils from affecting an Improved Sigil)
You mean other than assuming the feat Improved Sigil (Krau) is an Illumian 's racially granted Sigil power and affected by Enhanced Power Sigils right?

Well, Enhanced Sigils just says "the bonuses granted by each of your power sigils improves by 1." This is a bonus. It's granted by my sigil. The fact that it took a feat to unlock that particular bonus from my sigil is of no consequence.

I mean, if you're treating IS(K)'s bonus as gaining a new spell level than at level 2 it has 'access' to 2nd level spells, just how exactly did it just now gain access to 2nd level spells upon reaching level 3? Intent is clearly demonstrating otherwise.

When has intent been able to stop me? RAW, you still do gain access to some 2nd level spells at 3rd level. You just already had some.

Then there is Sanctum spell that has a upon cast clause... the wording is "are calculated according to the adjusted level." makes me think The key word here is “calculate”—it means when you use the level as part of some mathematical determination of the spell’s power or uses. Abilities that say “add your spell level” count, but abilities that say “a spell of level X gains this effect” don’t. per Bloodline rulings.

Yet, this is in addition to the words "A sanctum spell has an effective spell level higher than its normal level." Just because it gives more specifics on the calculations doesn't mean that it has no effect on other uses of the increased spell level.

The point is, if you happen to cast one of your Improved Sigil spells inside your Sanctum, it would be 4 levels higher (let alone what you could do if you added Versatile Spellcaster), so you can cast that level of spells. Using that to your advantage is what this is all about.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Spell Level Increasing
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2012, 01:36:24 PM »
Even if you say the effect is from the sigil and not the feat, it's not a "bonus" that can be boosted, it's "treated as one level higher".

EDIT: And you could burn a really-high-level spell with Arcane Strike.
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Offline betrayor

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Re: Spell Level Increasing
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2012, 03:45:58 PM »
Also wonderworker from BoED could help in such a build especially its ability to grant a spell slot of a spell you can cast,you could have a 10th level slot by level 18......

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Spell Level Increasing
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2012, 04:55:21 PM »
The classic is Miracle At Level 6.

The tightest defined is the old Mystic Theurge handbook.

The loudest and longest argument, was Precocious Apprentice.

Ardent raw is early entry keyed to MLs ; Ardent rai isn't.

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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Spell Level Increasing
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2012, 12:32:43 AM »
Well, Enhanced Sigils just says "the bonuses granted by each of your power sigils improves by 1." This is a bonus. It's granted by my sigil. The fact that it took a feat to unlock that particular bonus from my sigil is of no consequence.
Unlike the other Improved Sigil feats that do in fact explicitly state something along the lines of "your X sigil does this", Krau flat out has no such text. IS(K) is the source of the bonus and it is not a Sigil, it's a feat. and even sirpercival offers yet another reason it wouldn't work (which is backed by the FAQ's ruling on monk's belt).

The rest, like agreeing that IS(K) is talking "access to 2nd level spells" and you're doing something else (guess what feats/prcs want) and the ignore the rest of the entry being one hell of a troll statement is ignorable. My point was holes can be easily punched in w/e validation is made up so it never takes well and you're doing a wonderful job proving it.

@Awaken, I forgot the Miracle at 6th. Being "classic" I may have missed it in favor of Pazuzuing up Wish at level 1. Care to link/elaborate?

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Spell Level Increasing
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2012, 01:29:23 AM »
I'll admit that I'm not too familiar with the gaming world's overall interpretations of things like this. I was really sure that it worked, but if the public has ruled against it, who am I to argue?

I'm really glad I posted this thread before posting an actual build. It's good to know which things work and which don't before basing a character around them.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Spell Level Increasing
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2012, 04:15:19 PM »
Here was the last time this popped up on BG , with new and improved tricks.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=printpage;topic=8345.0

Here's the original ... lost to the board changeovers.
Miracle at Level 6 by DisposableHero_
>>>boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=589587

The wayback has it somewhere , but it uses one of the (multiple) other addresses wotc cycled through.
EDIT --- GAAHHH !!!!
found it: http://web.archive.org/web/20090124124818/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-589587

Cleric 6
Planning domain for extend
Heighten feat
DMM feat on heighten
Sanctum Spell feat at level 3
Extra Slot (!) at level 6


Yummy ... very yummy.
 :)
Although over the years, the arguments break down into "spell level" vs. "caster level" vs. lots of other stuff.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 04:25:57 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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