If you're going to try and argue that, Warmages explicitly learn new spells with their Advanced Learning class feature. Honestly, I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that a warmage can't research new spells since the only actual rules requirements are 1) being a spellcaster, and 2) making a spellcraft check, which warmages have as a class skill. Needing a DM is irrelevant -- you need a DM to approve anything you do. Spell research is in the rules, therefore it's fair game for a RAW discussion.
Okay, you can research a wizard spell for your wizard to steal and make you cry, since you aren't getting a Warmage spell, and this gets back at the point that the spells learned by Eclectic/advanced Learning are still Wizard spells, which is why all warmages don't automatically know all lower level wizard spells and equal level evocations.
...what? Why would a warmage research a wizard spell? A warmage would research a warmage spell, because it makes no sense that a warmage would even be able to research a wizard spell. Do you think that all researched spells are wizard spells for some reason?
For several reasons. Most importantly, they do not research warmage spells, only wizard spells via advanced learning(And, strictly speaking, they don't research for that either).
So you're saying a cleric can only research wizard spells also? And a sorcerer, and a druid, and a bard? None of these make any mention of researching their spells either.
Yeah, basically. And, you're bringing up what makes sense? In a YBIYBI? Yeah, no.
And, yeah, you need a DM, because there were never any actual rules described for what the hell the new spell is. So, no, you're wrong again.
I'm not sure what point you're making here...
I'm saying that there are no actual rules for the researched spells.
So? What does that have to do with anything? The rules for the process exist.
And the rules for the result do not. So, sure, you can research whatever spells you want, but you will end up with nothing, because there are no rules for what you get.
Oh, and warmages still don't research their new spells, so it still doesn't matter.
...or here.
Warmages don't research spells to learn spells. The rules for researching spells specifically refer to that act. Therefore, warmages, who cannot meet the prerequisite action, cannot research new spells.
Nope. Any spellcaster can research a spell. It's the first sentence. This research is in addition to any research they do to learn their normal new spells, which for a warmage is none. Just like for a cleric, or druid, or bard, or sorcerer.
Sure, except they can't. Specific vs general. The specific is that this is part of the research process for new spells. The general is that spellcasters can research spells.
And to preempt your next objection, the part about bards and sorcerers and spells known simply means that they can't go over their limits, not that they can't research new spells.
Except that they don't research new spells to learn them, so they can't.
The text on Extra Domains is irrelevant because it never claims to add the domain spells to any spell list. It just says you can learn and cast them with your spells known and slots. Specific overrides general, so you can.
No, you can't. It is on your list because you can do that. Also, once again, bloodlines. Are you going to say that all Warmages know all bloodline spells? And all Wizard spells, thanks to proper timing of eclectic learning? Yes or no?
Not at all. I've never said that, you've simply straw-manned my argument several times.
You really don't understand what a Straw man is, do you? If it expands THE list, then all of those things apply. If it does not, then it is still not a Sor/Wiz spell, and it cannot be shadowcrafted.
What you say is true IF I agree with you that what one wizard does to "The List" applies to all wizards, which I do not. Since you're arguing with a stance I'm not taking, that's a straw man.
The list does apply to all wizards, because THAT'S THE LIST THEY DRAW FROM. It's not that complicated. And you appear to really not understand what a straw man is. If I use your own bad evidence and flawed logic against you, then it ain't a straw man. Your logic professor, future, past, or current, is probably spontaneously breaking into tears at this.
quote]And yes, Arcane Disciple adds it to your class spell list. Which, as far as our ScM is concerned, is THE sor/wiz list, because it is their separate instance of THE sor/wiz list. It's the only THE list that our ScM knows. A wizard 1/cleric 19 has two class spell lists -- a THE sor/wiz list, and a THE cleric list -- for their two classes.
No. There is only ever one list. Period. A spell is either a Sorcerer spell or it is not. Ever. Period. That is it. Just because your Wizard can cast his Luck spell has nothing to do with the fact that it is a luck spell. It is still not a Sorcerer or Wizard spell. It's a spell your Sorcerer or Wizard can cast just as well as if you were a Mystic Theurge casting Divine Power.
You have yet to provide any rules text for this. You simply stating it as a fact does not make it a fact. Especially because if that were true, then why would any feat or ability (bloodline, arcane disciple, etc.) bother adding spells to your class spell list? They could have simply used the wording they used in Extra Domains from CDiv, which allows for casting without ever mentioning a spell list. Different words implies different rules.
Well, I'm really not sure how I can spell it out any more plainly without spelling it out with airplanes in a grassland.
So far the entirety of the rules text that you've mentioned is Rainbow Servant (irrelevant) and the section in Complete Divine (also irrelevant, for the same reason). You keep coming back to these, and the remainder of your argument is saying "No" and "False" over and over again. You haven't added anything new. What you need to do to convince me is provide rules text that actually contradicts my position, and not the position that you keep erroneously implying that I have. If you can't (and I don't think you can, though who knows), then the end result is that at the very least the rules are ambiguous, which means that this build is valid for the YBIYBI board.[/quote]No, it is not ambiguous. First off, the burden of proof is on you to prove that something works. You have not proved it.
As I also posted over in the Master Caster thread, there is still the issue that you don't actually know any Sorcerer spells, which are specifically referenced to in Arcane Fusion.
The two spells in question are both on the Sorcerer list. I thought you said a spell was a Sorc spell or it isn't?
Actually, it's a wizard spell. The wizard and sorcerer lists are different, just mostly overlap.
Are you going to continually retreat to "this is true because it's true"? If so, this will continue to be an unproductive conversation.
No, you're the one who's providing no evidence, and parroting others. Try again..
I've provided several snippets of rules text relevant to my argument. So far you've made unsubstantiated claims that there is a difference between "THE Sor/Wiz List" and a given Wizard's class spell list, and that changes to the former affect all wizards everywhere. All of your arguments have been based on these assumptions, which I'm disputing.
No, you haven't. You've provided unrelated or incorrect statements. And there is a difference, or every warmage knows every domain spell, every wizard spell, and so on. If there is no difference, then you can scribe it in your spellbook anyways, since it's already on the wizard spell list.
But, really, you have not provided ANY evidence that there is a difference. I am still waiting. You're the one asserting something, that the build works. So, I'm waiting.
Oh, and you still don't know any sorcerer spells. The sorcerer and wizard lists are different, so you know a wizard spell that just so happens to be on the sorcerer list as well.
Some more evidence, though it's FAQ and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt:
The PH says a wizard can scribe a spell from a
spellbook or scroll into her spellbook. Can she scribe a spell
from an arcane scroll that isn’t on the wizard’s spell list?
No. A wizard’s spellbook is limited to spells from the
wizard class spell list.
Can a wizard prepare and cast arcane spells that are
not on her spell list?
To learn a spell, it must appear on your class’s spell list, so
a wizard can add only spells from that list to her spellbook.
A wizard can only add spells from his class spell list to his spellbook. A wizard's spellbook is limited to spells from the wizard class spell list. Therefore, the wizard's class spell list is the wizard class spell list.
Hahahahaha! Faq? Good one! Hahahaha.. Faq. Heh.
While I have already admitted that the FAQ is not the most reliable source of rules adjudication in the multiverse, your laughter does not change the fact that it was written by the people who wrote the rules. It's circumstantial evidence at best, but it's more than you've presented.
No,it isn't. It's like me providing a some random author's nephew's best friend's dog's vomit as evidence. It's like me referencing some crappy third party book as evidence. I have provided evidence, but, at this point, it isn't my job, as you have yet to provide ANY evidence that it works. Well, beyond claiming that it works and unrelated text.
Oh? Even if the Rainbow Servant argument doesn't work(Which it does, but I'll leave you to thinking it doesn't), why can't every single warmage know every single wizard spell, given Eclectic Learning and Advanced Learning. If you are correct, they automatically know all wizard spells. And all Domain spells. I'm waiting.
