Min/Max Boards

In my campaing the group just switched plane (not willing).

In the new plane the deity pantheon is completely different.
My question is, what happen to the cleric?

We are going to have 2 new sources. I only know one for sure, and this will be the planar handbook. Any idea?

for what concern templates you can get everything that does not exceed the maximum starting level so i could grab 1 sometingh and a +9 LA template for example.
But i don't want to be too far behind with the time going.
I hope my DM will decide new materils soon.

Hi guys

After the recent wipe of my group the DM said the we would start a new campaign from level 10.
The given manual at the moment are PhB, DMG, MM I, complete warrior, complete divine, complete arcane, complete adventurer.
But we are going to get some others soon (i'm gonna update the thread when i know the new materials)

Giving that i want to play a tank, but i know that there are few choices and i really need your help (never played a tank before).

My idea is that:

We are allowed to take one trait and one template, so i was thinking about Synthetic soul with enhaced body and fast healing(based on con modifier) as a template and immunity to magic as trait.
Thinking about race i was going to say Dwarf for the sweet bonus to con.
Now we are coming to the real problem, which class should i play? i really don't like the idea of going paladin, so it's like i will be forced to play warrior (I don't really want to play a cleric). If the PhBII will be allowed i would like to cosider the knight. I would also consider the crusader but that material is unlikely to be allowed.

So, giving a few base info.
The sum of all ability scores must be 77
starting gold are 66000.
i have also no idea on which feats are the best.
(tell me if i forgot something)

Thanks for the help in advance!

For damage, go Frenzied Berserker... Cut stuff (both enemies and allies) in two...

eheh this was my first idea, and i like it quite much, still it would be silly to cut my allies in half but i can think a way to work around this with some roleplay.
TBH i looked at that and bear warrior (which i don't really like).
With that trait i was thinking on something very focused on critical and stuff.
Playing around with my background to fit the fact that i only use one weapon.
In my short carreer of D&D player i always played a "face", this will be my first time at something that rip enemies in pieces and is not completely based on roleplay.
(This will occur only if my actual bard is killed, thing that is most likely to happen )

This is interesting but not exactly what i had in mind. Sure bullrush can be useful but I think i'll enjoy more a barbarian more focused on rip enemies in half

Oh i forgot to mention that i'm allowed to pick one trait from http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Traits

I was thinking about http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Weapon_Specialist_(3.5e_Trait)

Quote from: Rokugan on August 26, 2012, 12:33:12 PM

I'm almost done building  my bard.
( I've also included 2 traits for him ^^)

My DM told me i have 21.000 gold pieces to spend as i prefer.
Any suggestions?



EDIT: i came up with this
Chocker of eloquence(minore): +5 diplomacy, bluff , perform (sing)   6k
Circlet of Persuasion: : +3 competence bonus on the wearer’s Charisma-based checks.   4,5k
Mithral chainmail+1:   +5CA   2k
Cloak of charisma:  +2 cha 4k monete
Mac-Fuirmidh Cithern: +2 perfmorm string +2 bardic music checks (fascinate, suggestion, countersong) / +1 level for bardic music related stuff  2,9k 
Cure light wounds, mage armor, sleep  1/ day

This would give me a +33 on my diplomacy check, :>

This is from the Magic Item Compendium, which you said was not allowed in your DM's games.

Pretty sure I found that in the Complete Arcane page 149

Rokugan, ariasderros is referring to the Point Buy System.

Your ability scores if added together, add up to 76.  However, under the Point Buy System, your ability scores will cost 34 points.  Are you rolling for ability scores, or "buying" them?

Point Buy System:

ability score	point cost
8	0
9	1
10	2
11	3
12	4
13	5
14	6
15	8
16	10
17	13
18	16

Hope this clears up any confusion!

As to only knowing basic information about the group, do you personally know any of them?  Outside of the game, are you friends with any of them, or are they relative strangers?  If you know them, do you know if any of them are casual gamers, newcomers, or "beer and pretzels" type of players?  Or do they really get into building characters and the game mechanics?

Yeah i know the difference   i meant that he told me that all ability scores summed up should give a 76 total, then i rolled anyway and fix where was needed. I played few sessions with 2 of them in another campaign. They are not new players but act like they are. Expecially one is the kind of gamers that goes "I loot this, i stole that, how much xp will that give to me?" etc.

1) Just to double check with you, Rokugan, you're saying that the Monster Manual, Dungeon Master's Guide, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, and Unearthed Arcana are disallowed to the players? That's going to make spontaneously casting Summon Nature's Ally and Wild Shaping hard for the Druid since he won't have a book to choose his Animals from. You guys will be left with just the Completes to choose magical equipment from? Harsh.

2) Can you take Prestige Classes out of the Completes?

3) There are a few tricks you could do with a Monk that you might enjoy. They're not completely useless as everyone suggests, but just very scattered on which attributes they need and are horribly puny compared to other classes. ariasderros said it well:

Quote

Because, I'll be blunt, making a Monk useful, much less good, in a party with a Wizard, Cleric and Druid would require a lot of CO.

4) Since you mentioned that you'd play a Fighter if they didn't suck, let me suggest Frenzied Berserker. Since you have access to the Complete Champion, you can use the Lion Spiritual Totem which grants you Pounce in place of Fast Movement. How about something like this:

Human

1 Barbarian - Lion Totem (Pounce), Rage 1/day, Illiteracy, [1 Power Attack], [B Cleave]
2 Barbarian - Uncanny Dodge
3 Fighter - [3 Intimidating Rage], [B Destructive Rage]
4 Fighter - Resolute
5 Fighter -
6 Fighter - [6 Improved Bull Rush], [B Shock Trooper]
7 Frenzied Berserker - Frenzy 1/Day, [B Diehard]

Books:
Lion Spiritual Totem ACF (Complete Champion p.46)
Resolute ACF (Complete Champion p.48)
Shock Trooper, Intimidating Rage, Destructive Rage (Complete Warrior feats section)

This would make you a very potent glass cannon with the ability to dish out tons of damage. You could take a -9 penalty to your AC when you charge to deal an extra +14 damage per hit and full attack at the end of it (which Frenzied Berserker gives you an extra strike when you full attack, so that'd be three attacks at weapon damage + STR x 1.5 + 14). You'd be able to Rage and Frenzy at the same time (save for when you know it's the big fight of the day) which grant untyped bonuses to Strength (which your Cleric/Wizard/Druid could buff further) and then use the Resolute Fighter ACF to help ensure you don't attack your allies when the fight's over (the one drawback of the Frenzied Berserker) and ask your allies to bump your Will Saves. At level 5 of the Frenzied Berserker, your Power Attack would deal an extra +33 damage per hit. With your Wizard and Cleric around to buff you, you'll be a flying grim reaper, destroying whatever you see in a single charge.

1)Monster manuale and DMG are ok, spell and magic item compendium no.

2) yep, can take everything but base classes.

I have to consider what you wrote about that barbarian build, it's not properly my playstyle but i'm gonna consider it thanks for the info.

The Bard's Handbook here is a good starting point for optimizing the Bard.

Speaking of optimization, what's the average "power" level of your group?

i really can't tell you cause i spoke just today with the DM so i had just basical informations. I only know that they had 76 point total in the beginning.

Quote from: Rokugan on August 25, 2012, 11:22:05 AM

Thanks everybody for the replies.
I also forgot to mention that are allowed only base classes from the PhB.
Also there are currently 5 others players (Druid, wizard,sorcerer,rogue, cleric)
So i'm left with fighter, bard, barbarian, monk,paladin or ranger. Like i said i'm pretty noob; i've only played till level 5 with a cleric e few levels with a psion.
I really don't know, i feel that the group could use some can meat (like a fighter) but i've read so many times that it sucks.
I feel pretty much restricted with all these limitation. So, what can you guys reccomend me?
I know that is up to me to chose something to fit my playstyle, but i really don't have a playstyle but I tend more on versatile PC rather than a simple tank and spank.
If only i could, i'd play a factotum


P.S: I really don't care to play something uber optimized and OP. I prefer something that can lead to different cool roleplay situations. (but with that i don't mean i wanna sit in the middle of the fights doing nothing)

Monk would sit in the middle doing nothing in most circumstances. In that party, you'd most likely end up being reduced to setting up the rogue's sneak attack.

Firstly, yes, the fighter sucks. The monk is much, much worse. Much. VERY MUCH. *ahem*
Second, is there only allowed to be one person per class?

It sounds like what you want is a melee character. But that's inference.

From the guide to Wizards, here are the party roles as most of us have come to understand them (written from the perspective of it being in a guide for Wizards, mind).

(click to show/hide)

Quote

We've all heard that the standard party in D&D revolves around 4 iconic roles. For those who have spent the last 25+ years of their life NOT playing D&D those roles are: Meleer, Healbot, Arcane caster and Skillmonkey. The rest of us knew that already.

In other words - if you go back to Basic D&D there were 4 human classes. Thief (now we call them rogues to be politically correct), Magic User (now we call them Wizards since it sounds less boring), Clerics and Fighters.

However, rules have changed and party roles have changed. A party with the 4 iconic roles should do just fine - but I would define the roles differently.

Out of combat you have 4 roles:

Social ("The Fop"): This guy thinks he's the leader. Whatever - he does the talking well everyone else lets him.

Sneak ("The Corpse"): This guy sneaks ahead to scout the enemy's lair and finds and disarms traps for the group. Why do I call him the "Corpse"? - reread what he does again.

Healbot ("The Gimp"): Anyone who spends his character's resources for healing is clearly the party Gimp. That said - you want a party gimp. Preferably - not you. (though it can be done with Arcane Disciple)

Utility Caster ("Everything Else"): The party transporter, the party Diviner. One way or another - this is the casters' role - in other words - this is you.

That's it - everyone else is just taking up space. You should have all those bases covered - but let’s face it - D&D is primarily about combat. No matter which of the above your character is good at, if he can't contribute in a fight - your character is a liability to your party.

In combat there are also 4 roles - these are the roles that get filled:

The Big Stupid Fighter: This role involves two things: Doing HP damage to BBEG, forcing BBEG to attack you with his viscous weaponry. The Big Stupid Fighter is not always a fighter (though stereotypically he is). He may be a Barbarian, a Summoned Critter, or a Druid. In order to qualify as a Big Stupid Fighter he should be any character that actively tries to be the target of enemy attacks. For those who wonder why I would label this character as "stupid" regardless of their INT score - reread the previous sentence.

The Glass Cannon: This role involves one thing: Doing HP damage to BBEG. The Glass Cannon is like the Big Stupid Fighter except he does not want to take damage. Usually this is not due to superior intelligence - but instead due to inferior HP or AC (or in most cases - both). The Glass Cannon is often a Rogue (Or Rouge for our 13 year old readers), a Gish, an Archer, or a Blaster (the inferior wizard).

God: When reality would entail the above two meeting a rather messy end - someone will need to make some adjustments to said reality in order for the above two to instead meet glorious victory. What other label could such a force be labelled as than "God"? Well - how about "Primary Caster" One label or another - this guy needs to make Reality his Witch (replace the "W" in your head.) in order to do his job effectively.

The Waste of Space: This is the character of the player who thought a Bard/Monk/Sorcerer multiclass was an excellent idea - or who thought healing was a good "combat" role. This character just doesn't fill any of the above roles well enough to be anything but a liability to the group. You probably have had one in your group. Heck, you probably have one in your current group. Don't sweat it - as long as it isn't you.

* Why isn't the Healer useful in combat? Good question. There are two ways you can live your "pretend" life - reactively or proactively. God will alter reality to prevent damage, a healer will try to do "damage control" (pun intended) after the damage has been taken. Simple truth: The mechanics of the game make preventing damage more efficient then healing damage after the fact. That's not to say a well placed "Heal" or even "CLW" never has use in combat - but if you're doing your job - it should never be required as a primary role.

So the real question here now is: What rolls do you want to fill?

Because, I'll be blunt, making a Monk useful, much less good, in a party with a Wizard, Cleric and Druid would require a lot of CO.

Tripping, Grappling, Damage, just the Druid out-matches anything you can at this level by a factor of 3 (your effectiveness, cubed). That could be swung a little in your favor if he is restricted to the forms in just the Monster Manual, and you were allowed full access to everything as a monk, but not even then would you be as good at those things as a Druid, you just wouldn't be as far behind him. This is nothing compared to what he could do if he, or the Wizard, were actually trying.

EDIT: Just to clarify: I do think this can be done (a monk in the party). We are a character optimization community. We could get a request for how to have a core-only Commoner be effective in a party with a Wizard, and one of us or another would manage something. So, I guess there are a few questions to be added in:

• How tied to the Monk are you?
• Does this group have a rule about not over-lapping base classes? (note: you can be in the same class as someone and be doing an entirely different role in the party with it.)
• You already inferred a non-committal point ("don't really have a playstyle") to this question, but I'll directly ask it just to be sure: Which party roles most interest you?
• Is SRD allowed?
• Are Psionics allowed?
• Is there a way you could bully your DM into allowing the Factotum?

1: not at all
2: Yes
3: I'd like to play a versatile PC, mainly the face of the group but with some combat utility.
4: uhm, maybe?
5: nope =(
6: I don't know, maybe is worth a try, but i don't think this would be possible.