Min/Max Boards

I think I'm going to assume the least awesome ruling for rebuking pools, one at level 6, but I'll ask the DM.  I won't be unhappy if that's all I get.  If he wants to split the pools, I'll happily assign extra turning to both pools!

Also, due to custom Gods and custom starting gold, I can't afford the Ruby Skull, nor is there a Wee Jas.  As it is, I have a philosophy based cleric in order to pick up Planning and Undeath Domains.  The DM has mentioned that there might be a bidding war for me as the existing deities find out I'm "unattached" !!!

Don't do it!  LA do indeed mean that you'll be 2 levels behind everyone else in terms of class features and hit dice, and drow are +2 LA because the designers grossly overvalued spell resistance.

Now, if you can figure out some sort of Lesser Drow (using the rules in PGtF) which has no LA, then go for it.

Everyone will be Drow, so I'll be at the same power level as the rest of them.

Though, since you mentioned this is specifically a drow game, my hunch is that the DM will waive the +2 LA for everyone.  Does not make much sense to use LA when everyone in the group is the same race / power level.

This is a definite possibility, but I wanted to have two versions of the character ready to go.

So essentially the only change I make is in a 5th level game, I create a 3rd level character with a heck of a long way to go to 4th.  At ECL 6th, I can buy down my LA, right?  Or do I need to be 6+2LA=ECL 8?

Seriously, you can reflavor your material component pouch as worry stones or the like; you don't need Eschew Material Components.

You'll need some kind of code between you and the DM; you know, so you can tell him what you are casting.

Or take ranks in profession: Apothecary, so spending time in shops selling eye of newt and wing of bat looks totally plausable.

Oops, quoted instead of modified.

A link to the myth-weavers sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=408640

Yohan the DarkMale Neutral Human Cloistered Cleric, Level 2, Init +2, HP 16/16, Speed 30
AC 12, Touch 12, Flat-footed 10, Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +5, Base Attack Bonus 1   
 (+2 Dex)
Abilities Str 11, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14
Condition None

The rules for generation were TOB and Psionics banned, everything else except PHB, MM, and DMG by request, no flaws or traits, one (extra) bonus feat at first level.

I tried to follow the handbook and it seems like I'm on track to enter at 4th level, after a dip into... something, to make the will save requirement.  I'm thinking of Dread Necro, but am open to suggestions.

I took Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, and Divine Metamagic, which I attached to the Extend Spell from Planning Domain, and got Extra Turning from Undeath Domain.  I traded Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion.

The DM has approved everything I have asked for, with the exception of adding a poor Fort save for Cloistered Cleric, which isn't too harsh.

I considered Tomb Tainted Soul, but it doesn't really go with the character, the DM seems flexible but leery of overly optimized characters, and I'm not sure how far I'll be able to push the paladin I think will make it into the game.

Any other suggestions or replacements for the character?  Do you find any errors?  Any ideas on making the most of my 300 gold? 

Thank you everyone who contributed to this thread! Unfortunately my app wasn't picked to be in the game. The application deadline was suddenly moved up and I didn't have time to finish. Good luck with your games, hope this good karma is paid back soon!

All valid objections, it seems like, but let me explain my reasoning.

When we fight, we will be attracting attention.  The harder we fight the more attention we attract.  It sounds strange, but while I want to be effective, I am happy to be out-shined.  I fully expect that there will be fights where someone will get crazy, fireballs will fly, and the rest of the party will have to shake their heads and move on as someone goes out in a blaze of glory.  Make no mistake though, glory = death.

In this game, no amount of power is going to defeat what will be coming at us.  Wizards are not dumb, it wouldn't have taken them long to realize what was happening when this all started.  We all know that Wizards are well equipped to push back, and if they banded together in common cause with the other arcane casters they could bring a serious amount of power to bear on the problem.  My guess is that Arcane and Divine basically being as good as each other, albeit at different things, the deciding factor was that churches are inherently organized, wizards are inherently not organized. 

It took 200 years, but the churches have all but stamped out their foes.

The combined churches have the weight of years of totalitarian authority and have had 200 years to re-write history so that the common people believe that anything other than Divinely inspired magic is evil.  We're locked in a city that hates and fears us, and thanks to the long war against Arcane, is well equipped to find and kill us.


I wanted to play a caster, and not a magically inclined warrior or rogue.  Given the realities, I'm happy to sacrifice some power for a character that is subtle, isn't completely dependent on magic to survive, and from what I hear about the campaign, I think I'm near the sweet spot in the fluff / self sufficiency / optimization venn diagram.
Also, I'm coming at the game from a slightly different direction than most of you.  For the last few years I've been playing Dresden Files RPG, which compared to D&D is one step this side of freeform.  The philosophy is that whatever build you make is going to be roughly the same power as any other build, what's important is how you imagine and use it.  In this game, imagination literally is power, since how you apply what you have is so much more important than what you have.  Power levels are less important to me than having the flexibility to attempt some really out of the box solutions.


I really appreciate the concern for my fun that's behind all the objections, but if you like you can consider me a basket case and move on, or (and I would really appreciate this!) you could accept the rough form I'm looking for, pretend it's some kind of weird optimization challenge, and have at it!

Let me approach the concerns and comments in reverse order:

[ I don't know why all the handbook writers are in love with improved init, esp when warning and eager are out there that pretty much make up for it and you have a million better feats to take.  Its not that improved init sucks, its that there's just so much better out there.  Also go conjurer ,not transmuter, for abrupt jaunt if you've got your heart set on specializing.  And btw conjuration is a better domain, but its a secret   

I can see the improved initiative argument.  I agonized over it but what I kept coming back to is what happens when I'm found?  I feel like we're always going to be outnumbered, and for a low hp wizard, acting first seems like it might be the difference between locking down the fight and dying to a couple of attacks.  I plan to use the hell out of Improved Initiative + nerveskitter.  If you're inspired to show me a better way, please do!
We have a character who is going malconvoker.  He's going to take all the sweet summoning conjuration tricks and make them shine.  My plan is to be right behind him making his stuff shine brighter.  If it works, we all win.  If it doesn't work, well, they're looking at him, not me.

Also, use the Spontaneous Divination ACF. Give up your 5th level bonus feat for the ability to(Depending on interpretation) either cast ANY divination ever printed, or at least any Wizard divination(Period, doesn't need to be in your spellbook) spontaneously. It even qualifies you for Versatile Spellcaster if you want, although Uncanny Forethought also does, and you should take it. If you need to, you can use your flaw to pick up.

I almost, almost, almost went Divination.  The fluff for my character is that he actually sneaked into town years ago to begin to organize a "Resistance in Occupied France" kind of thing.  What stopped me is that I'm not sure how well I'd use divination.  Buffing and sniping is pretty straightforward, and I felt more comfortable with that.  As it is I will still have access to any divination spell I want and will gladly accept guidance about that.

Uncanny Forethought is seriously attractive, especially since I need to be flexible.  I've asked the DM if I can have it, and if yes, I'll be weighing it against Invisible Spell, or whatever else you guys suggest.

I'd go Human, with:
Wizard 1/Spellthief 1/Wizard +4/Spellwarp Sniper 1, if you're set on spellwarp sniper.
1)Spell Mastery H)Uncanny Forethought F)Extend B)Point Blank Shot(Using the UA ACF that lets you trade wizard bonus feats for fighter feats
2)Persistent Spell
3)Master Spellthief
6)Versatile Spellcaster

Elven generalist+domain wizard=early 9s. I don't think your DM will be too happy 'bout that. But, even if you don't go that route, the combo is really nice. I just don't see what it has to do with believing in Nexus.

  What does early 9's mean?  I just found out about the whole racial substitution levels yesterday.

A warlock is actually great for a starting/just getting back into the groove player.

I seriously considered it.  It's thematically appropriate, and invocations are so cool, but I've done that.  I wanted to try something different.  As for random dips into other things, I'm trying to limit how much sampling I do.  He could easily argue that Arcane users don't know each other because that invites someone to rat you out.  It would be so much harder to find someone to show you the ropes for each new thing than it would to have a few trusted friends.

Spellwarp sniper is good, but ray spells mean ray deflection (spell compendium). Also effective with warlocks but not so much with adepts.

  It's a wiz/sorc only spell, so I don't think I'll be seeing it too often, and I do have options other than rays.  Not to mention that in the group I expect to see, I won't be the one to worry about.  Are there good strategies for getting around it in case I get screwed?

With the build you're looking at, you'll have to check to see if master spellthief will be applicable, since you're not technically a caster with only one level of spellthief (I know the boards count it, but your DM is using house rules, so I'd check first)

As for spell mastery...it's good if you know your DM will take your spellbook away. That's about it. If so, take a trawl through the boards for first level spells... s/he is allowing you to pick your first spells, yes? If not, it may be a waste.

I think you might be right.  I might need to swap Master Spellthief to the 6th level slot.  Level 2 spells is the pre-req if I recall, and I wouldn't have those by level 3. 

I fully expect spellbooks to be taken, left behind in an emergency, and destroyed.  They're such an easy way to recognize and penalize wizards.  My next stop is the spell book handbook to see what I can do to ease the problem.  Magic items are going to be set at a dear price, so I don't expect to see too many of them unless we take them off the church.  Having my own metamagic options is going to be important.

I do still heartily recommend Dragonfire adept for the low maintenance, though if you're willing to jump in with a wizzy, go for it, they can be a blast for versatility. Just be careful, because those spells you get per level may be all you're seeing. A dose of collegiate wiz wouldn't hurt (bringing it to wiz1/spellthief1/wix 4/spellwarp whatever) to increase those.

I'm pretty set on having spellthief be first for the massive skillpoint boost.  If it weren't for master spellthief, I'd have gone rogue for even more skill points.  I firmly believe that being able to fall back on mundane ways of doing things is going to be key, and keep me alive.

Extend Spell is for improving the duration of long-lasting spells, so you can cast them today, rest, and get back your slots.  A Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell will do just fine most the time, thereby saving you a feat.  You could go with Eschew Material Components if you were very paranoid, but it's up to you.

I thought about it, but the DM has said that material components that have no cost can just be assumed.  That kind of limits Eschew's power, and although it is STILL better, I don't think it's a feat slot better.  It would still be a gateway to those metamagics that require you to have one, but having Extend seems safer.  Especially if my stuff gets taken away.

Oh god, major rule changes, slipped in by editing prior posts.  Try this one on:


This is important, and something I forgot to mention. Cure and Inflict spells - and those spells alone - will be available to arcane casters, but they are prepared at one level higher then a cleric normally prepares them. Furthermore, an arcane spellcaster isn't restricted by morals the same way a cleric is, and could potentially prepare both.

Ok, so without some shenanigans, it'll have to be Spellthief1/Wizard5/Spellwarp1


Looks like Master Spellthief is going to be better than practiced spellcaster, and I'm not even going to try the "apply these effects in any order you choose oh look your caster level is 48!" thing.  I have to get point blank shot at 6th I think, to qualify for spellwarp.  What should my level 1 be?  Also, if I went with human and gained a bonus feat, what should that be?


That's plenty to make me happy.  Now I need to get to work doing the math, and figuring out feats and which order and oh god.

He was firm on no Dragon Mag.  No SRD even since it's not a physical book.  If it weren't for the option to reclaim the level as an arcane caster level, I'd just go with rogue.