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Messages - ShubNiggurath

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1
Min/Max 3.x / Re: ECL 8 Gestalt Whisper Gnome were-owl
« on: June 17, 2013, 10:47:41 PM »
@Rebel

Not enough. Also I suspect that what you suggest does not belong to the allowed sources in the OP

@Jack

I will take a look, thanks! Still, I really would like to make a SA build. My character has STR 5, so I am not sure that ToB classes can push my standard damage that high. My only option is extra damage (favored enemy, sudden strike, SA...) I think. Right now the build is

Whisper Gnome were-owl
Rogue 7/ Shadowdancer 1//Barbarian 1/LA 3/ HD 1/Warshaper 1/Monk 2

Bonus feats: Weapon Finesse [were-owl], Alertness [were-owl], Iron Will [were-owl], Skill focus (Intimidate) [Otyugh hole]
From monk: Dodge, Mobility (for Shadowdancer)
Flaw: Combat Reflexes (for Shadowdancer)
1) Improved Initiative (for Nightsong Enforcer)
3) Titan Fighting (RoS)
6) Multiattack (since I have 3 natural attacks + a 4th coming from warshaper)

Continuing as Rogue on one side and Warshaper, Nightsong Enforcer, Fighter (Thug variant) and 1-level dip in Exemplar on the other. ToB dip under consideration

2
Min/Max 3.x / Re: ECL 8 Gestalt Whisper Gnome were-owl
« on: June 17, 2013, 08:20:31 PM »
@ Jack

Yeah, the cheesy staggering is explicitly allowed and encouraged, so...

I still can't figure out anything better than swashbuckler. All in all, I feel that rogue 5/swashbuckler 3 + daring outlaw is better than rogue 8. Any suggestions? ToB classes on the rogue side would make me lose too much SA, unless you mean just a 1 level dip. If so what would I get in exchange for the lost SA?

Class alignments are not a problem. Lycan slowly turns you into the animal's alignment (owl = N), so he started LN (monk levels) and became N (barbarian). I might have to pick the barbarian level later than monk though


@Ithamar

True but buyoff doesn't help a LA+3 character at ECL 8. Warshaper uh? I didn't think about it, good call

3
Min/Max 3.x / Re: ECL 8 Gestalt Whisper Gnome were-owl
« on: June 17, 2013, 02:52:35 PM »
No buyoff unfortunately

I am thinking about dropping swashbuckler actually. It takes over my L6 feat and it only gives me back some REF save, a handful of hp and +3 to damage (INT=16) when I can already crit. But I lose a feat and 12 skill points for it. The BAB increase is not huge given that you can stagger classes on the other side to max BAB

Should I go rogue 8 instead?

4
Min/Max 3.x / Re: ECL 8 Gestalt Whisper Gnome were-owl
« on: June 17, 2013, 01:12:17 PM »
I assume that SS is swordsage. In that case am I not better off adding it at ECL9? I am really a noob with ToB, please be patient

Great tip about the flanker feats! EDIT: unfortunately they don't work for SA. Adaptable flanker allows you to pick another square you threaten to determine flanking even with yourself. That means that a small/medium character can only use it to SA against a medium or smaller opponent and even then only with a reach weapon.

And a pity about darkstalker... (and craven as well, I love both feats and neither is allowed)


The new build I am trying to craft is:
Whisper gnome were-owl
Rogue [Penetrating Strike] 4/Swashbuckler 3/Shadowdancer 1//Barbarian [Lion Totem; Whirling Frenzy] 1/LA 3/Animal HD 1/Monk [Cobra Strike] 2/ Cloistered Cleric 1

Comments:
- Swashbuckler is kinda lame but I have 16 INT so it might be worth it. I already get weapon finesse from were-owl unfortunately. At least it has full BAB
- Cloistered Cleric is ok but not necessary. I am mainly using it to get travel devotion and improved initiative (for Nightsong Enforcer entry). It also gives me gravestrike... but that's only for one round anyway
- I can move the shadowdancer level to either side but it has to be at ECL 8
- Monk is necessary to get the feats to enter Shadowdancer. I am also planning to go unarmed

Key Feats: Daring Outlaw

Continuation: Rogue on one side (to continue being a skillmonkey), some mix of Nightsong Enforcer, Thug variant fighter and maybe Blade Bravo to maximize BAB and SA. Also an exemplar dip and a SS dip

I need help on:
- How to reliably make the Control Shape skill check DC25 to avoid becoming an animal every time I get hit (I am at 11 ranks + 3 WIS +5 DM approved item = 19 now. I would need 22 and possibly 24 to feel comfortable)
- Optimizing continuation (and current levels) to maximize SA and BAB + skillmonkey-ness and stealth

5
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Bone Knight
« on: June 17, 2013, 12:52:34 PM »
Thanks man! Useful reference.

Unfortunately none of this allow you to
1) Not lose a CL
2) Get ride as class skill

6
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Bone Knight
« on: June 17, 2013, 11:54:47 AM »
Quote from: Demelain on June 17, 2013, 01:25:07 AM
Quote from: ShubNiggurath on June 17, 2013, 12:43:17 AM
I am not sure how you enter with Cleric 5 (you can't) or cleric 6, due to the skill point requirements. I am not aware of any domain that gives you ride as a class skill. If you are buying ride cross-class you need 28 sp to enter. Over 6 levels that's 4 sp/level i.e. 12 INT and human.
Are you really going to buy a 12 INT on a melee cleric?

You need Cloistered Cleric to enter BK fast (and that's at ECL 7, not 6) without losing CL

Craft(Armorsmithing) 6
Knowledge(Religion) 4
Ride 6 (CC = 12)

Total = 22, not 28.

INT 10 + Human => 3*9 SP = 27, you've got five to spare.

More concerning would be that to get 6 ranks in Ride cross-class requires ECL 9 to begin with.



You are right since I included Craft weaponsmithing as well, that you need to pick up if you want the bonecraft weapon class feature (and SorO convinced me that I do). You can pick up those during BK levels but concentration is cross class for BK so you need all the sp you can get. I am not comfortable with a melee cleric with low concentration skill

About the ECL9 requirement... you are right. And that means that you need a Faerun feat (Cosmopolitan) to enter an Eberron class. Great. How often do you think that's allowed in games out there?

7
Min/Max 3.x / Re: ECL 8 Gestalt Whisper Gnome were-owl
« on: June 17, 2013, 11:41:31 AM »
I got Penetrating Strike of course. Is there any feat that helps flanking?

I read about the swordsage dip and it is suggested to take it at L9 so next level. For now I have to work without it, I guess

Weapon crystals are a problem since I am using unarmed strikes. Still, since US count also as manufactured weapons, maybe the weapon crystal would work?
The two biggest monster groups that you can't SA are undead and constructs. If I cover those two I should be fine. A cloistered CLeric dip would give me gravestrike, so I guess that I need to find a way to hit constructs. Maybe elementals and incorporeals as well

8
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Bone Knight
« on: June 17, 2013, 12:43:17 AM »
I am not sure how you enter with Cleric 5 (you can't) or cleric 6, due to the skill point requirements. I am not aware of any domain that gives you ride as a class skill. If you are buying ride cross-class you need 28 sp to enter. Over 6 levels that's 4 sp/level i.e. 12 INT and human.
Are you really going to buy a 12 INT on a melee cleric?

You need Cloistered Cleric to enter BK fast (and that's at ECL 7, not 6) without losing CL

9
Min/Max 3.x / Re: ECL 8 Gestalt Whisper Gnome were-owl
« on: June 16, 2013, 08:35:43 PM »
Quote from: Jackinthegreen on June 16, 2013, 05:06:24 PM
If you're going to be unarmed, you might want to think twice about going TWF and using flurry since the rules have been contradictory.  I'll refer you to http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?88125-WotC-ruling-on-TWF-Flurry-of-Blows to see most of the wonky stuff with that.  Ask your DM about how it all works, given that the rules haven't properly cleared things up by most accounts.

Thanks man, I will check. Unfortunately my BAB is too low to really use both effectively

Quote from: Jackinthegreen on June 16, 2013, 05:06:24 PM
Have you considered swordsage or warblade in your build?  Sudden Leap might work nicely for you, plus various Shadow Hand maneuvers will be nice for being stealthy and opportunistic. 

Good point. I dislike ToB but I might need to leverage it for this build. Should I go for Warblade? It seems it gestalts better with a rogue-ish PrC (high HP, FOR save, BAB)

Quote from: Jackinthegreen on June 16, 2013, 05:06:24 PM
Keep in mind Swift Ambusher only progresses Skirmish, not SA.

OMG you are right! I guess that I need to review my entire build. Scout might be not worth it at all after all. The Cloistered cleric level made it too much work anyway.
I still need to figure out a cheap way to sneak attack monsters that are immune to crits, then

10
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Bone Knight
« on: June 16, 2013, 08:20:07 PM »
Quote from: SorO_Lost on June 16, 2013, 06:03:57 PM
Says the new guy using a "RWoF" that gets zero hits.

Eh, I have been on optimization boards since 339, many, many years ago. I remember you. Appearances can be deceiving. About the zero hits... Divine Power?


Quote from: SorO_Lost on June 16, 2013, 06:03:57 PM
I'm not even sure where to start here. But I mentioned the Bone Knight's increased BAB value means he'd choose to Persist a more useful and better Spell. You're rebuttal was basically oh yeah what about the +6 Enhancement to Str? What about it indeed? Meaning who cares. Righteous Might gives a weapon size increase and a stacks-with-enhancements +8 bonus to Str. Higher levels, why not Miracle up Bite of the Wearbear's +16? Your rebuttal is so inconsequential it baffles me.

Instead of being baffled, let's look at the numbers here. To enter BK you left behind about 3 BAB and you persist now righteous might... that leaves you ahead of some damage, a little DR and behind 2 AB. Is it really such a huge improvement to claim that the increased BAB from BK (we are talking about 2 points over 7 levels) and therefore the ability to trade Divine Power for Righteous Might makes such a huge improvement? It seems very minor to me, especially if the lower BAB leaves you an attack behind.

Quote from: SorO_Lost on June 16, 2013, 06:03:57 PM
Which leads to your second rebuttal. Claiming Knowledge Devotion is free and better than a Bonecraft Weapon. You realize the bonus Domain you're trading away from the Cloistered option not only lowered the Cleric's HD/BAB but also traded away Shield & Medium+ Armor correct? You're literately trading away your melee tank capabilities in a thread about undead using melee tank clerics to present this Knowledge Devotion is free concept.

I had a re-rebuttal here since cloistered cleric is not much worse than normal cleric for a tank at medium-high levels , then I realized that you wrote a rebuttal to a claim I never made. You were comparing kn devotion and bonecraft weapon and I just pointed out that assuming that it costs a feat is not always true. If you want to go that way, than I should say that Bonecraft weapon costs you 6 ranks in ride, a caster level as well and the opportunity cost of NOT taking another PrC. That's a higher cost than a feat.

Finally I would also like to point out that if you want to get to BK 8 ASAP (and you want to, since that's the golden level) you need Cloistered cleric to enter the PrC (or an obscure way to get ride as a class skill). Ironic uh? The most likely character to have Cloistered Cleric, the "not-tanky" option is actually the BK.

Quote from: SorO_Lost on June 16, 2013, 06:03:57 PM
Then lastly. What do you do with a 7HD Skeletal Hydra? Kill stuff. Please taken the 1/8 second to google any undead, necromancer, Wizard, or Cleric handbook. I'm sure all high quality guides of each of those will explain how an army of Hydras murder-screw everything in D&D.

I read all the above handbooks I am aware of and I have seen some interesting "Undead army" options, but that's not what we are talking about here. The HDs you can control are too low to have the thousands of undead you need to make a claim that you can raze cities and the small number you actually get is useless in high CR encounters that you will face.
I still need to see how your four 7HD hydra helps against an Astral Deva encounter. Show me that and I will concede the point

11
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Bone Knight
« on: June 16, 2013, 04:55:57 PM »
My bad about the INT. You are right. Still I don't see their usefulness at high level (that's when you get them)

60' is pretty small for an ARMY. You can have a few low HD undead with +1 or +2 turn resistance at ECL 13+. I still fail to see the big deal

The great thing about IF is that you can optimize it (and use it with gnome quickrazor + invisibility/hide every round of course). IF pays off only if you invest heavily in it, but if you do, it is incredibly powerful. The possibility to pump it makes IF great, while the bonecraft weapon is a flat 1d6.
I already conceded that the weapon is an ok ability, but it is nothing more than that

12
Min/Max 3.x / ECL 8 Gestalt Whisper Gnome were-owl
« on: June 16, 2013, 04:08:13 PM »
I am trying to build a skillmonkey/sneaky/melee rogue ECL 8 gestalt character and I was thinking about a whisper gnome were-owl for crazy hide/move silently boni

Currently I am at:

Rogue 1/scout 5/ Ranger 1/Shadowdancer 1//Barbarian 1/LA+3/ Animal HD 1/Monk 2/Cl Cleric 1
I still need to figure out the optimal order

- I am planning to Use both the Swift Hunter and Swift Ambusher feats so that advancing scout on one side advances also SA and Favored enemy. But that means that I need a rogue level and a ranger level in there
- Monk 2 is there to use unarmed strike AND the claw/claw/bite routine of the animal hybrid form (+ flurry and TWF if needed) to increase the number of attacks. Also needed to meet the Shadowdancer requirements
- I am taking natural lycanthrope because I can't figure out a way to make a DC 25 Change shape check in combat (you have to pass a check every time you lose 1/4 of your hp... and that WILL happen)
- Shadowdancer is necessary for HIPS. ToM is not allowed in this game so no Dark template to save the day. LoM not allowed either
- Cl cleric is there for travel devotion too activate skirmish
- Barbarian is there for pounce

Overall I feel that I am stretched too thin and I have a BAB too low to take advantage of all my attacks. So the questions are:

1) How to optimize my build to increase BAB and SA while keeping the thematic melee rogue with huge hide/Move silently check?
2) How to reliably make a DC25 Change shape check in combat (meaning that I need a +24 to the check) so that I can have one more level to play with? Assume +2 WIS and 11 ranks
3) I am planning to continue scout on one side (since it improves also SA AND Favored enemy and it allows me to be a skillmonkey) but what to do for the other side? The only thing I know is that I wnat to take a level of exemplar at ECL 10. Can you guys help me find a class or PrC that has:
- Good BAB
- Good FOR/WILL (ideally)
- Nifty abilities that ideally fit a melee rogue (SA, hide, mobility)


Allowed sources are: All core, All completes, MiC, SpC, PHBII, MMII, Dungeonscape, Tome of Battle, Expanded Psioncs Handbook, Races of Stone, Cityscape, and Unearthed Arcana

DISCLAIMER: I knoww that melee rogues suck. I never played one though, and I wanted to try it for once

13
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Bone Knight
« on: June 16, 2013, 03:50:58 PM »
I can see that. Still, that's the Ur-Priest with his accelerated casting that makes the class good, not the BK class itself.

Now the question is: Can you get to BK 8 by ECL 15? monk 2/duskblade 3/Ur Priest 2/ BK 8 gets you there, I think, but can you do that without arcane casting?

14
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Bone Knight
« on: June 16, 2013, 03:39:02 PM »
I am sorry, but I am not sure if you read the fine print on most of those abilities

Quote from: SorO_Lost on June 16, 2013, 02:43:34 PM
First off, Divine Power loses it's net worth thanks to Bone Knight's full advancement. A typical Bone Knight will instead choose to Persist something else which means even more power.

True. But Divine power still saves you 36k for a item of +6 STR so whatever else you persist better be good. RWoF is persisted already by everyone btw, so please do not use that example.

Quote from: SorO_Lost on June 16, 2013, 02:43:34 PM
A Bonecraft Weapon has a huge return rate as well. Take everyone's favorite Knowledge Devotion, for a Feat and 5 Skill Points it gives +1 to Attack & Damage. Bonecraft? 6 Skill Points and you get +1d6 so it's closer to the OP skill Iaijutsu Focus.

You are completely off here. Kn devotion does not cost a feat, it cmoes free with cloistered cleric. And its skill point requirement is used for 90% of the cleric PrC so it is not really a cost. Granted you probably will sink more sp in Knowledge than you would otherwise.
Still 1d6= 3.5 damage on average and knowledge devotion gives you about 20% probability of +2 attack/damage so it is equivalent to something like +1.2 attack and +1.2 damage. Using PA conversion of +1 attack = +2 damage that's about on par and nowhere near Iaijutsu Focus

I can concede that the bonecraft weapon is actually decent but by bringing in IF you weakened your argument

Quote from: SorO_Lost on June 16, 2013, 02:43:34 PM
Bone March is the only official means to buying Skeletal Hydras off NPCs,

And what do you do with a 7HD skeletal hydra at ECL 14? Please, I really want to know how your hydras contributes against an Astral Deva encounter


Quote from: SorO_Lost on June 16, 2013, 02:43:34 PM
free Turn Resistance is when when talking Undead armies,

What? It only works within 60 feet. That's a pretty small army IMO

Quote from: SorO_Lost on June 16, 2013, 02:43:34 PM
and Fill the Ranks is freaking awesome. 1/day Material Component & XP Free ability that summons an armed intelligent Undead creature that can be stockpiled and use Command Word Magic Items for you. Amazing.

Are we playing the same game? How do mindless undeads activate magic items? And again, 7HD paper weights vs CR 14 encounters


Quote from: SorO_Lost on June 16, 2013, 02:43:34 PM
Another real highlight is of course is the Bonecraft Armor. For 6 Skill Points you can augment any Armor you can think of with a +4 unnamed bonus to Intimidate and DR X/Bludgeoning. By 4th level it grants Immunity to Stunning which is awesome by it's self, and the Immunity to Non-Lethal sets up damage immunity combos without needing to dip Prestige Paladin (another cl loss!) and Persist Favored of the Deity. By the 8th level, the last break point, you pick up almost total Undead Immunities except you still have your ConMod & several d10s.


I already wrote all of that in my post. Bonecraft armor is good and BK 8 is amazing, but before than (BK 7 and below) the immunity to stunning, non-lethal and 50% immunity to crits does not make up for a caster level.

This is a class where you give up a CL upfront and you get the prize 7 levels later (BK 8). Compare it with Ordained Champion 1-3, that gives you something back right at Level 1.

15
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Bone Knight
« on: June 16, 2013, 01:45:50 PM »
@Demalain
Yes but EACH undead is limited to your BK level. What are you doing screwing around with 4+ undead each with 7 HD at ECL 14? Seriously?

And your will save can never be too high. High level monsters throw around crazy DCs and you need all the help you can get to fail saves only on a 1 (and have the Pride domain). Anything less than that at high level (when failing a FOR or WILL save pretty much means you are out for that combat) is a big problem

About being 1 CL behind, that means that 50% of the time you are casting spells 1 level below the rest of the group. In a real game I find that it makes a BIG difference



@Rebel

Good point. To be more precise, what I am arguing is that a Cleric 4/ CI 6/Cont 4 can tank just as good as a BK 7 (or maybe only a tiny bit worse) AND casts better



You know what, maybe teh class is not horrible, but it is not optimization material if you are not close to ECL15. What irks me (and probably made me go all the way to the opposite) is that on more than one cleric handbook I read that this is the BEST PrC for clerics. That's just wrong, even without invoking Dweomerkeeper. It is mediocre at best over the course of the game.

16
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Bone Knight
« on: June 16, 2013, 01:25:10 PM »
Really? You would trade a Caster Level and your will save for a couple of situational immunities and martial weapon proficiency? Call me when your friends are casting L9 spells and you are not.
In any case you should compare that to Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 6/Contemplative 4. That's the opportunity cost

17
Min/Max 3.x / Bone Knight
« on: June 16, 2013, 12:47:23 PM »
Seriously, I read on multiple guides how good this PrC is for clerics but before BK 8 I just don't see it.

Let's take a quick look at what a BK 7 gets you. Mind you, BK7 means that you are ECL 13 or 14 (depending on how many shenanigans you pull to get the skills and BAB 4 required to enter). I am assuming you don't want to lose ANOTHER caster level to get in faster (at ECL 5), since BK 1 already loses you one

BK 7
- BAB +7 - Good but nothing special. You are a cleric, you get divine power after all
- Good FOR/Bad REF/WILL - The second worst save progression after Rogue's and worse than straight cleric
- d10 hp - Meh, we are talking about 10hp average at BK10 over straight cleric
- 2+INT skill points - Bah, like a cleric
- Martial weapon proficiency - GOOD!
- Very bad skill selection - No Concentration!
- Stacking Turn Undead - Meh, you use them for DMM anyway
- Bonecraft armor [+4 intimidate, DR 4/bludgeoning, basically Diehard] - Meh, DR is nifty but 4 points at ECL 14 make almost no difference
- Bonecraft weapon - +1d6 damage vs living creatures BUT it costs you another 6 skill points in Craft (weapon). Overall... meh
- Skeletal steed - Horrible. It gets about 7HD at ECL 13-14 AND arguably if it dies it gives you temporary penalties like it does to paladins. HORRIBLE
- Taking over undead/Animating undead - HD Limited to your BK levelk so essentially USELESS (unless you want to pull out a shadow/wight - apocalypse for fun)
- Immunity to stunning/nonlethal and 50% to crits/SA - VERY GOOD!
- Lose a CL

So at ECL 14 you get some nifty immunities, some DR and martial weapon proficiency, lose a CL and some saves... horrible? honestly, yes. If you factor in the opportunity cost of NOT taking, say Divine Oracle and Contemplative for a xxxxload of extra domains AND FULL CASTING... well this class is just bad

But what of BK 8 you will ask me? It gives you a HUGE list of immunities and redeems the entire class. True, but that comes at ECL 15, what games start that high? Unless you START at ECL 15 or very close to it, BK just doesn't seem to cut it for me. Imagine starting at ECL 8 and having to muddle through 7 levels of bad features to get the icing... while coping with a lost caster level.

This seems another case of "let's look only at what happens at ECL20" to me sadly so common on optimization boards.


TL-DR:
-BK 8 is great but the class before that is just bad
-Unless you start close to ECL 15 don't bother with this PrC, no matter what handbooks say

18
Introduce Yourself / Me
« on: June 16, 2013, 12:27:15 PM »
Hello everybody, Shub Niggurath here

I was part of the old boards and 339 before then. I have been playing D&D for almost 20 years but I am trying my best to ignore 4e. I haven't really got into Pathfinder but I have nothing against it ATM. I mostly PbP at Myth-Weavers, since I don't have large chunks of time to dedicate to the game any more

I currently live in the USA but I am Italian (born and raised)


Happy gaming from your friendly neighborhood Elder God!

19
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Damage
« on: December 18, 2012, 09:27:03 AM »
Dwarf ancestor is a favorite to pump NA

A while ago... I think it was Ithamar... he created a cat void disciple that was inflicting a boatload of negative levels/round. It might be worthwhile to look into it if you can get Ithamar to post here.

About your build... negative levels should let you kill everything in sight with the exception of undead. You should have a plan on how to kill undead...DFI works for that

20
Min/Max 3.x / Re: The perfect rogue Prestige Class (and sample build)
« on: December 13, 2012, 12:58:15 PM »
It is trolling when you purposefully ignore clearly presented information to spur a discussion. Relevant example: I said in my post above that you gain 3 point buy by not having to pump CHA to 11. Did you include this information in your comparison? Of course not.


Quote from: Piggy Knowles on December 13, 2012, 11:54:24 AM

So to me, you're trading 20 SP and a superior skill list UMD, +2d6 SA, and 2-3 special abilities for 10 HP, a Will boost, and a class feature that provides a damage boost akin to the Sacred Strike featslightly higher SA damage, two free feats (the capstone is effectively darkstalker and dragonfire strike), 3 point buy and some minor abilities.

Edited to correct misinformation

Now, considering that you can use your 3 point buy to buy +2 extra INT (likely, depends on point buy) and that you can use the rogue special abilities for a feat this reduces to:

UMD + maybe 1 extra special ability vs 10hp, much higher WILL, a few minor abilities and a few SA damage

I call that clearly superior

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