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1
What is your stance on material from the Dragon Compendium? Notably the Dvati.

Also, I assume Illumians with "Aeshkrau" are fair game?

2
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Mirror Spell
« on: November 22, 2011, 02:37:10 PM »
Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game is officially licensed, so I think it's fair that I point out, among amusing things, Mirror Spell. Sure, it has two horrible feats as prerequisites, but you need one of them (Iron Will) for things like Incantatrix anyway, so there's at least a chance it won't be completely wasted. But Mirror Spell itself: it's a metamagic that lets you cast a spell twice. "Oh, like Twin Spell? Or Repeat Spell? Or Split Ray?" Not exactly. See, while all of those work similarly, and Twin Spell is essentially the same effect, they all raise the spell slot of the spell. Which is to say that Mirror Spell doesn't. Instead you spend a second spell slot on the spell as if you cast it twice. Now have fun with Quickened Mirror spells. Or Quickened Mirror Arcane Fusion; or really whatever.

Page 112.

Ugh, wow. That is silly good. Though the source feels awfully 3rd party.

3
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Another cleric necromancer build
« on: November 21, 2011, 02:48:01 PM »
A Helm of Telepathy will cover all your mind-speaking needs. Or a level in mind-bender, if you want to have a slightly less stealable source. And while you are getting telepathy, have you considered Mind Sight? Because a 100' sphere that detects any intelligent creature is hard to pass up.

I know he is opposed to dispelling, but would he consider casting Reaving Dispel (SpC)? Not sure how he'd get access to it, but it is an effective magic repurposing tool.

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Min/Max 3.x / Re: Vampiric Touch optimization?
« on: November 18, 2011, 09:27:49 PM »
It's fancy, but I don't think that's optimal.  If something has 2000-4000 hp, why would you even consider going up to melee (or even relatively close non-melee) with it?  If it doesn't, why are you breaking out the sledgehammer to drive a thumb tack?

Because the thumb tack looked at him wrong? and called him names? and talked about his mother in a non-flattering manner?

For the C.O. boards ~2000 damage via touch to a peasant is fairly mild compared to say...
...Wizards spending years in demi-planes quizzing the Gods for details on every second of the forseeable future.
...Twitchy chargers pounce-ganking deities.
...Time traveling psions with infinite reflexively banked actions.

Nay by those standards this is simply too mundane, straightforward, even yawn worthy.

I kid, I kid.

Is there anyway to get this in ray form? Because this just smacks of spellwarped sniper. Also, unseen seer will add a few paltry bonus dice. Negligible in the face of such damage, but ever point counts.

5
On another point, it looks to me like a lot of these builds, while awesome and multipurpose, are not really druid centric. Psychic Theurge and Beholder Mage are incredible, but the objective here is to construct a sort of Druid "Gold Standard" so focusing heavily on nondruid classes seems off the mark.

It's really hard to improve on the druid 20 chassis, because most prestiges aren't worth losing wild shape/animal companion progression for, and most of the ones that are worth it are flat-out broken.

Forgive me if I speak blasphemy but I don't really see why 20 lvls worth of Wild Shape and Animal companion are necessary. The abilities themselves are important, but losing a few levels for additional features does not look as awful as people are making it out to be (especially given that the loss can be offset with items and feats).
________________________________

Wild Shape:
While this power is AMAZING and ultra powerful, it is also heavily front loaded. By level 10 a druid can change 3/day, for 10 hours each, into an Animal ranging from small to large size. That list is so large that a player could choose a completely different form every time they change, and still never even cover half the possible variations, and many of its REALLY abuseable effects come from feats and PrCs. Dragon Shape, Aberrant Shape, and of course the Magical Beast and Outsider forms from Planar Shepherd. Since the Druids ability to choose a form is based on the form's size, not HD, it is entirely possible for him to go the whole game simply relying on the abilities of small - large creatures.

Add to this the fact that an Amulet of Wild Shaping (40,000gp) will make up for 4 levels of lost shaping (or the Divine Minion template), and that most Druid PrCs tend to progress and (more importantly) expand wild shaping after a few levels. The fact of the matter is, unless you are dead set on assuming Elemental forms (which ARE great), it is entirely possible for a druid to remain strong even with only 5-10 levels of Wild Shape progression.

Animal Companion:
Animal companion is also awesome, no doubting that. Especially at low levels where having a furry murder wall is an invaluable asset. However, as levels progress, the quality of the companion does not really keep pace with the abilities of the party. The base animal companion doesn't have much function outside combat, and even then its combat options are mostly limited to mauling a single target. By level 15 the other Tier 1's of the party will be summoning equally dangerous creatures (via Planar Binding and Planar Ally), and these summons have casting, spell-like abilities, and native powers well beyond what a standard Animal Companion will possess.

Also consider that a single feat can make up for 3 levels of lost companion progression, and Animal Companion benefits cap at level 18. This means that you can safely lose 5 levels of AC and still end up the same as a straight druid.
________________________________

A druid can lose 4 levels to PrCs with no negative impact on Wild Shaping, and 5 without a lasting effect on Animal companion. So dipping Sacred Exorcist or Contemplative is viable, and the loss from Moonspeaker or Lion of Talisid can be offset. (This is assuming lvl 20, if you are building from level 1 a slight delay in power may be seen, but hopefully the PrC in question is making up for that momentary lapse)

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Min/Max 3.x / Re: Violent Apostle of Peace
« on: November 17, 2011, 08:53:41 PM »
I believe you can tweak your build a bit and get your vow feats provided as a class feature, and then use grayguard to ignore the code of conduct.

Unless I gravely misremember, Grey Guards loosened code applies only to the Code of Conduct Paladins adhere to, and won't impact feats.
No, they apply to all of them... The writer of the Grey Guard pretended it wasn't a Paladin fixonly PrC and, therefore, wrote it loosely enough to potentially let in the loosening of Vow-related requirements.

Hmmm, I have a character I must immediately go forth and edit. Thanks.

So by that ruling, which Vows can be circumvented?

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Min/Max 3.x / Re: Violent Apostle of Peace
« on: November 17, 2011, 08:30:51 PM »
I believe you can tweak your build a bit and get your vow feats provided as a class feature, and then use grayguard to ignore the code of conduct.

Unless I gravely misremember, Grey Guards loosened code applies only to the Code of Conduct Paladins adhere to, and won't impact feats.

8
Hey wait ... Sigma Jargon's Old H.I.V.E. can be done with Druid.

Druid 10 / Vermin Lord 10 , act intrigued.

Oooh, aaaah. Time to throw out my summoner, H.I.V.E. commands minions waaay better.

But seriously, H.I.V.E. is awesome, but doesn't really come into its own until Vermin Lord lvl 10 (15th level or so). At this point it takes off so monstrously that the DM's best bet is to abandon the game and move on.

On another point, it looks to me like a lot of these builds, while awesome and multipurpose, are not really druid centric. Psychic Theurge and Beholder Mage are incredible, but the objective here is to construct a sort of Druid "Gold Standard" so focusing heavily on nondruid classes seems off the mark.

9
The Summon Elemental reserve feat does not benefit from any of your other feats.  It is not a Conjuration (Summoning) spell.

I was actually wondering that. It says in the feat that "The elemental acts as if summoned by a summon monster spell (PH 285)". But perhaps that is a generous reading of the feat on my part.

Assuming it doesn't work, what would be a good substitute? Imbued summoning is nice, though the Druid's more restrictive spell list keeps it from being as powerful as it is in Clerical or Wizardly hands. Rapid Spell serves summoners surprisingly well in a pinch.

10
I submit to the thread:

THE SUMMONER

Shifter Druid 5/Moonspeaker 4/Planar Shepherd 5/Contemplative 1/Thamaturgist 5

Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Cloudy Conjuration, Greensinger Initiate, Natural Spell, Summon Elemental, Rashemi Elemetal Summoning, Ashbound, Greenbound Summoning

Bonus Feats: Augment Summoning

Flaw: Shakey

Domain: Dragon Below (Grants Planar Ally & Gate)

Pros:
-Full Casting
-Summons last 4 times longer, and enter with a variety of Excellent Buffs and Improvements.
-Additional Summoning Options, Planar Ally Tree & Gate added to spell list.
-Summon Free, Heavily Augmented Elementals at Will, that come in with a sickening "Poof!".
-Permanent Planar Ally and Contingent Summons
-Planar Bubble of Your Favorite Plane
-Reliant on a Single Attribute

Cons:
-Loses out on both Animal Companion and Wild Shape.
-Reliant on little buddies that don't scale well at lvl 15+
-Uses Planar Shepherd, and that just feels dirty.

Summoned Creature Bonuses
   Animals: +10 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, +4 Cha, +3 Attack
   Elementals: +4 Str, +8 Con, +3 Attack
   Others: +4 Str, +4 COn, +3 Attack

On Planar Blubble
   I won't bother going into the details regarding how abusable Planar Bubble hijinks are. Assuming you don't plan on abusing free wishes or quintuppled time-streams any plane which grants a reliable healing field will go a long way in improving summon survivability. As will any source of concealment. Naturally the Planar Cohort should probably be similarly attuned, and ideally also have bardic music (looking at you Eladrin).

NOTE: Divine Minion goes a ways to counteract the wild shape hit, as does a "Wild Shape Amulet" from MoF (+4 Effective Druid Level for Wild shape).

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Min/Max 3.x / Re: Magina, the Anti-Mage
« on: November 15, 2011, 03:34:34 PM »
I didn't use Shadowlord.

Too true. Posted edited.

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Min/Max 3.x / Re: Magina, the Anti-Mage
« on: November 15, 2011, 03:24:26 PM »
Soul Eater is fantastic vs Casters, assuming you can tolerate being a non-humanoid and evil. Full BAB, All Good Saves, and Energy Drain at the first level. Stacked with Shadowlord it is possible to blink in, deliver about 4 negative levels (8 at Soul Eater 10). This gives you stat bonuses, a ranged negative energy attack, and assuming you have Spell Drain...their spells. Conversely it puts them at approximately -4 to attacks, saves, and skills, and down about 8 to 16 spells.
Killoren Ranger 2/Warblade X/Soul Eater X (Warblade until you can afford a graft to get a natural weapon, preferably a bite attack, then you can shift your existing Weapon Focus over to it and go straight into Soul Eater, take it as long as you like, and then finish out with whatever).

For teleportation, pick up Shadow Jaunt (move action version) with a Shadow Hand item from ToB.  You can recover it normally with your Warblade recovery mechanic.  Dual-wield Necrotic Focus weapons and follow up with your Bite attack.

I'd strongly advise Tefflemar Shadowlord, to fill the blinking niche, as well as getting the awesome Shadow Pounce ability.

The prerequisites are a bit rough. The Feats are pretty easy, 3 natural feats and a flaw will get your there. The dimention door power is easily attained via magic item (I believe there is a cheap 5/day short range jumping item in the MIC). The real trick is Shadowlord requires sneak attack, 2d6. This can be accomplished with Assassin's Stance, or one level in Rogue (or better, SA Fighter Variant) with a finger blade. Shadowlord will fulfill all its own prerequisites by lvl 5, and get you the CL 5 pre-req for Spell Drain. This makes the following build possible.

SA Fighter 1/Hexblade 4/Soul Eater 2/Tefflamar Shadowlord 5/Soul Eater 8

Race: Something non-humanoid with a natural attack. A bite attack is best, and easy to get (grafts do work well)

Feats: Natural Weapon Focus, Blind-Fight, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Energy Drain, Spell Drain

Items: Finger Blade (for +1d6 Sneak Attack), Something of Dimension Door (you only need this till the first level of Shadowlord, then it meets its own prereq).

Results:
-Almost Full BAB (that improves with each level drained)
-Drain 2 levels with each hit (which means they lose 4 spells every time you strike)
-Pounce
-Respectable Damage
-Great Saves (that improve as levels are drained), Charisma to saves vs magic, mettle. (A Ring of evasion would complete the trifecta of fearless saving.)
-Ability to cast spells reaved from enemies

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Min/Max 3.x / Re: Magina, the Anti-Mage
« on: November 15, 2011, 02:26:55 PM »
Soul Eater is fantastic vs Casters, assuming you can tolerate being a non-humanoid and evil. Full BAB, All Good Saves, and Energy Drain at the first level. Stacked with Shadowlord it is possible to blink in, deliver about 4 negative levels (8 at Soul Eater 10). This gives you stat bonuses, a ranged negative energy attack, and assuming you have Spell Drain...their spells. Conversely it puts them at approximately -4 to attacks, saves, and skills, and down about 8 to 16 spells.

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Min/Max 3.x / Re: The Worst Druid
« on: November 10, 2011, 08:02:09 PM »
Well, as a power gamer how would you get mileage from the venerable kobold druid (swift hunter+ forest avenger ACFs)19/ blighter 1

Str 7, dex 6, con 1, int 11, wis 11, cha 19+5

heavy armour proficiency, tower shield proficiency, toughness x5

That Wis 11 worries me, with scores like that he can naturally cast spells. Dropping that to 9 will solve that problem neatly. Just in case he can tack on the Mage Slayer Feat for a negative CL.

Now if only there was some way to prevent him from using magic items.

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Min/Max 3.x / Re: The Worst Druid
« on: November 10, 2011, 03:11:50 PM »
What level are you aiming for?  Because once Shapechange becomes readily available, the ability to play a bad druid becomes even harder.

I was figuring Level 20. Although I think it is pretty unanimous that the Druid has to lose its ability to cast, otherwise it is pretty much impossible for it to truly suck.

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Min/Max 3.x / Re: The Worst Druid
« on: November 10, 2011, 01:27:01 PM »
Can some base rules be established so it's not entirely silly?  Like, "32 point buy, and you have to spend it all."  And, "You still have to roleplay AS a druid, no purposely crippling yourself by just wearing metal armor, cutting down rainforests to build cities, or other stupid crap you're blatantly doing just to screw the character out of his class features."  Any character can light themselves on fire and die in the first session if your goal is to just be as worthless as possible without any boundaries...

Good Idea.

Additional rules for bonus difficulty.
-Level 20 (No Massive LA)
-32 Point Buy. All points must be spent.
-Assume that you would not be playing the character and instead handing it off to a tweaky power gamer. Therefore no wishing away your own class features, or assuming that he wears heavy plate.
-The challenge isn't "Can you play a Druid poorly" anyone can do that. The challenge is, "Can you make a druid that is impossible to play well."

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Min/Max 3.x / Re: The Worst Druid
« on: November 09, 2011, 09:36:38 PM »
Swift Hunting Forest Avenger Druid 20

Race: Arctic Kobold

Feats: Sacred Vow, Toughness x5, Vow of Poverty, (Bonus: Vow of Nonviolence)

Stats:   -8 Str, -4 Dex, -8 Con, +3 Int, +1 Wis, +3 Cha

Arctic Kobold comes in as a strong choice for de-optimization. With -2 Str, -2 Con, and -2 Wis. Plus the small size counteracts some of the movement speed bonuses he gains from all the Druid ACFs. Making him Venerable makes those values even more decrepit, nailing him with -6 to all physical stats. Alternative class features cost him his ability to Wildshape, cast spontaneous summons, and his animal companion. And assuming he starts with Wis 8 and does not improve it he will remain unable to cast spells.

His feats are mostly crap, Toughness just barely balances out the lost HP from low constitution, Sacred Vow is crap, and Vow of Nonviolence is pointless so long as he cannot cast, and actually penalizes his party mates if they act in a violent manner. Vow of Poverty on the other hand grants significant bonuses and combat advantages. However, it is necessary to prevent him from using items to boost his appallingly low physical stats and getting Wisdom high enough to actually use magic (a level of Blighter would solve this problem, and clash terrifically with his feats!). By more strict interpretations this even prevents him from using UMD to cast, important considering that +3 charisma. Naturally, non of VoP's bonuses are put into Wisdom.

Beyond this he can rage fairly frequently and run at an appreciable speed. His BAB is not THAT bad, his Will save and Fort save are good, and he gets a fair amount of skill points. He might make a good party face...if he hadn't lost Diplomacy as a class skill. Even so, he is totally outshined by a core only Monk in nearly every department.


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Min/Max 3.x / The Worst Druid
« on: November 09, 2011, 05:45:23 PM »
Branching off from the "Least Optimizable PC Class" Discussion Here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=554.0

It was mostly agreed that Druid is pretty much an all-in-one ready-to-play box of awesome. Full casting, Spontaneous Summoning, Wild Shaping, Two Good Saves (the important saves too), an Animal companion for starting, and class bonuses at nearly every level. The class is pretty hard to mess up...

And that will be the point of this little exercise, fuck up a druid. The objective should be to create the shittiest possible druid, as low tier as it can go. It has to be a true druid build so Druid 1/Commoner 19 is really not acceptable, though templates, races, PrCs and feats that needlessly cripple the class are welcome. Ideally core only monks should laugh in this druids face, and fighters should be a boundless toolbox of options by comparison.

Enjoy!

EDIT FOR BONUS RULES:

-Level 20 (No Massive LA)
-32 Point Buy. All points must be spent.
-Assume that you would not be playing the character and instead handing it off to a tweaky power gamer. Therefore no wishing away your own class features, or assuming that he wears heavy plate.
-The challenge isn't "Can you play a Druid poorly" anyone can do that. The challenge is, "Can you make a druid that is impossible to play well."

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Introduce Yourself / Re: It's RobbyPants
« on: November 09, 2011, 05:30:06 PM »
Welcome

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