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Messages - Honeyko

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(I) Don't play pathfinder. Can't even say it's worth raiding for ideas.... My Player Group's power gamer keeps muttering from time to time about how we should play the game and that she wants to play a wizard again.

That alone is enough to make me want to kill it with fire.
There is no Pathfinder wizard archetype/PrC combo that is as strong as 3rd's Mage of the Arcane Order. (And nobody in PF is casting Shield+7 into a bauble and giving it to the fighter either.)

(So: you should totally take your power-gamer up on it, then ban his old 3rd edition stuff as obsolete/incompatible.)
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That said, I have read the rules and I have this to say about monks, having one min/maxed monk and one player playing a much more poorly designed monk trying to play catch up while avoiding "cheese".

Monks, straight up, suck.
Having a potential three two-handed Power Attacks with a temple sword at 4th level is something no other martial class can swing at that level -- and it's core rulebook 6th printing. No splats.

(All the melee-oriented classes are significantly better in Pathfinder. Even <shudder> rogues.)

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Considering that mast PrCs are munckin-traps demonstrably worse than the base class they purportedly "upgrade", it's refreshing to actually encounter one worth considering. (So, thanks for the top.)

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The key monk flaws are:
-Low AC - bypassed by specific builds, but generally lower than other characters without feat investment until the mid-late game.
Off-set by higher Touch AC and Evasion (serious factors when a single Empowered ray can drop a wounded fighter in his tracks -- and I've seen more character death by that exact method than any other in PFS play).
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-Low damage - 3/4 BAB means Power Attack is weaker, while using Flurry limits your ability to apply strength to damage, all other 3/4 BAB classes possess their sources of supplementary damage.
<Glengarry Glen Ross> "Always Be Flurrying!" (That's what shurikens are for -- plinking distant targets after dropping the guy you're in melee with.)
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As a multi-attacking specialist, they don't get bonuses which apply to each hit outside of damage dice increase, which at an average of +1 damage every 4 levels, is frankly embarrassing.
You mean, automatic increases to damage? Well, aside from a barbarian's rage increase (which are just as slow), what other class gets automatic increases? Fighters have to spend feats, and then their bonuses only apply to the weapons they picked. When all properly pimped, that fighter will do better in an endless no-rest dungeon slug tailored to burn out every other class' uses-per-day. But the fighter still has garbage saves and worthless skills, so there's balance.

-- A monk isn't nerfed when he stops being as good as, or better than, a fighter, at fighting.
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-High operating costs - Monk finds it more expensive to operate simply by having unarmed+unarmored being more expensive to bolster than armed+armored. Essentially they lose an item slot(weapon), on top of costlier equivalents
See previous post. That character could donate 100% of his income to "charity" (i.e., the wenches), and still kick ass harder than a rich fighter at 5th.
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-High MAD ...
Due to the escalating cost of very high initial states, MAD isn't the killer argument I get the impression people make it out to be. I.e., a human with a bump in STR starts with an 18 for a +1 attack over my dwarf. But it costs the human 20 points to start with an 18 STR and a 16 CON, whereas the dwarf monk will be spending only 15 for 16s in both, leaving 5pts to throw as WIS...which will give him "free Iron Will" and extra attacks (via Ki). The fighter has better flatfoot AC and worse touch.
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All those ki abilities run off your hotly contested standard action.
Most Ki powers are activated as Swift actions.
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-Scattered capabilities - Monk abilities do not build towards a coherent role, much like spellcasters. Unlike spellcasters they do not have sheer quantity of abilities or power in each ability to make up for it. ...
It's odd that you'd compare monks to spellcasters, since monks (especially dwarf monks) are the CRB melee class you want to throw into a roomful of enemy wizards first.

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how the hell were they doing that?
Beats the hell out of me...but their characters survive auditing, so the cheese was kosher.
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MAD as hell, no synergy within their own abilities, lose most of their stuff if they try and improve their capabilities in any way... oh, right. No armour. Need a huge boost to equal one guy in plate. Plate = +8 to defence. Add in +1 from dexterity. A monk, to do that, needs an 18 in Wisdom and an 18 in Dexterity, and another two in one of them. Then they need high strength to do any damage, and high constitution to... you know, not die, because they're mundane, martial class and have merely average HD. :|
Here's a current character I'm running.... (these are first level stats):

Dwarf; 25 pt buy
STR:16
DEX:14
CON+16
INT:12c
WIS+17 (bump 4th)
CHA-:05

(This is for Skulls & Shackles, a pirate-themed Paizo adventure path in which the absolute last thing you want to do is go over the side of a ship wearing full-plate.)

Buck-naked at 1st, he has a Touch AC of 15 and flurries for 2x 1d6+4 (+5 if on ships) due to starting traits and feats. ...not bad, since we're all penniless, gang-pressed slaves at the start of the campaign,

At 5th, when he picks up Marid Style as a 5th-level Monk of the Four Winds, in a full-attack flurry, he can dish out three attacks (spending a Ki point for the third) for 2x 1d8+4(or5) + 1d8+8(or9)+2d6 Elemental Fist icicle attack with 10' reach. He has six Elemental attacks per day (by contrast, a paladin is getting his second Smite). The extra 10pts of damage obtained from Marid/Elemental is equivalent to a fighter hitting five times (to pull +10 out of Weapon Specialization).

If all three connect, he'll dish out just shy of 40pts. In his skivvies. Unbuffed. No steel in sight.

This, mind you, is a relatively obvious synergistic combination of one official feat and one official archetype both appearing in literally the second Paizo splat (Ultimate Combat). I.e., it isn't a bizarre pastiche of broken Limburger from different books by different 3rd-party publishers.c

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What is so good about those?

Four Winds is actually pretty lackluster. 3.5 already has an Elemental Stunning Fist sub, and the Ki Strike replacer's additional +1d6. 17th level to gain another mode of movement is ten levels later than magic items right?
Well, granted: they're nerfed in the context of 3.5+splats ....but then again I was getting tired of seeing half-naked guys unloading twice as much DPR as my fighter while having saves twice as good. It got to the point, around 12th level or so in Living Greyhawk, where monks made everyone at the table feel useless, and it was like you weren't even playing a fantasy game anymore.

Now, they're about right where they should be: not as overall destructive as the d10s or d12s (but definitely can be short-term), but more rubbery on defense (unless they're built stupid) and full of actually useful skills.
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Reincarnate, well take away a Monk's Shadow Blend, Blink, Snap Kick, uber Unarmed, Mantis Leap, etc. And of course the Monk needs a freebie Reincarnate ability (rather ran paying a druid to do it if he goes without hearing from him). So the only gem there is Slow Time. Except it pulls from your Ki pool which is a daily limitation.
Dragon Style is better than Mantis Leap; and virtually nothing is as uber awesome in melee as two-hand Power-Attacking with a temple sword in a Flurry.
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Since almost every single one of the Monk's none-defensive abilities run off this pool in PF you're effectively trading out ever using your other Class Features to... *drumroll* Make two extra Attacks. Good thing FoB doesn't stack with TWF any more right? :rolleyes
Well...why would you want to anyway? -4 to every attack is pretty rough. But if you really want to rape multiple attacks....
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Sohei reenforces Monk is 2 levels long by telling you one level is more than enough.
A sohei multiclass archer is the best artillery in the game; see: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n203?Sohei-Monk-armor-and-flurry-of-blows#29


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With the Monk of the Four Winds and Sohei archetypes, I'm having a hard time time buying monk nerfage arguments.

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Introduce Yourself / Hi; I'm Honeyko
« on: June 05, 2013, 03:09:33 PM »
Yippee Ki-yay.

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