Min/Max Boards

Not a joke at all.

It's generally more efficient to use your spells to do things other characters can't do.  Any schmuck with a sword can deal damage.  But it makes their job much easier if they're held to the ground by giant inky tentacles, or if they're lulled off to dreamland so the rogue can slit throats at their leisure, or if you throw magical glitter in their face so they can't see to defend themselves or attack anyone else.

Just when I thought things couldn't get worse--and it was just the beginning so I don't know why I thought that--we have a class feature that divinely empowers rape in order to disfigure or potentially kill at their deity's discretion.

And of course, if they're actually found favorable, they are offered an atonement spell--presumably they need to be forgiven for looking like "they were asking for it.'

Fuck this guy.  He is literally weaponizing rape for PCs and then offering the victim an opportunity to be forgiven for it.

Forget Chapter 6.  FATAL has already arrived.

dna1 and Demelain:
    Thanks for the sorcerous advice.  That character's player has opted to forego the more gish-oriented alternate class features, because she's had her fill of fightin' for now (before this she's been playing a Horizon Tripper in a core-only game and a Crusader before that) and wants to trade in armor for a Slinky Hot Pink Dress of Armor, Stiletto Heels of Translocation, and a Tiara of Charisma.  Metamagic specialist looks good, however, as does the Domain Access ACF.  I mean, using that to grab the Exorcism domain just ties the two prestige classes that have been mentioned together, and doesn't cost a feat.  Also, it looks like the Exorcism domain has a better granted power and spells than Balance for this character and game both.  We'll both probably avoid Fell Drain, simply because the bulk of our serious opponents are going to be undead anyway.  Turns a normally top-notch metamagic feat into something not-so-good, and also fluff-wise out of place on her, the Prettiest of Princesses.

Endaire:
     You're probably right on the build there, although I'm still weighing the cost and benefit of taking the first two levels of Master Specialist rather than taking the fourth and fifth levels of Wizard.  Your assessment that having the ability to persist buffs will be useful before the ability to spontaneously cast is pretty much spot-on though, especially since I won't have enough depth in my spellbook to worry about it at level six.  Also, it gives me a bit more time to get some extra oomph in my followers through Leadership before Circle Magic comes online.  I'm not so sure about the need for spontaneity necessarily, especially with the ability to use divinations reliably, but after a certain point they're either no longer reliable or can be fooled somewhat easily--so at the high-end it will likely help out immensely.

The DM has agreed to re-fluffing the racial and gender requirements (it'd be another story if this were going to be set in FR), as well as allow the doubling of the initiative bonus from the hummingbird familiar re-fluffed to be a particularly robust, active, and personable canary, seeing as we're from a mining town to start.  Since I'm likely to take the Immediate Magic for Conjuration, the hummingbird will be through Acquire Familiar.  I'll see about being able to take that one at first level.

Nunkuruji:
     I'm aware this module is undead-heavy, as I've employed Spawn of Kyuss before--I used them as a zombie apocalypse form as presented in the Urban Arcana setting for d20 Modern.  Blending the standard necromantic and parasitic/viral scenarios together really threw the players off their game, as well as squicking out a couple of players with the transmission method.  Now that I'm potentially on the receiving end (and I don't know whether they're the same in this path as they are in d20 Modern), I'm doing what I can to contain my terror at being infested.  Doing everything I can to avoid the worst of undead attacks WILL happen.  Might even, by making my cohort a full-blown Craftificer, throw in some redundant defenses in case of others being dispelled or somehow bypassed.  I'll let the Sorceress and Outlaw worry about offensive firepower--my job is to make sure that the party not only survives, but thrives.

On the topic of the Outlaw, the Penetrating Strike ACF will be at least looked at if we can't secure some Truedeath Crystals or Gloves of Grave Strike or something along those lines for her.  Dead'ns gotta die somehow.

Other Items of Note:
-Radiant Servant of Pelor was mentioned again, and I think that's what I'm going to recommend to our fourth man.    I've got more experience with Clerics than Druids, and while Clerics require a bit more up-front planning there's much less to figure out at each level than a Druid as you advance.  What's a good way to build a RSoP up, or some resources I could be directed to in order to suss this out myself?

-If I ever play in an Eberron campaign, I'm stealing the build for the sorcerer (perhaps including the battle/stalwart ACFs mentioned earlier) and making the best damn exorcist the Silver Flame has ever seen.  I'm a fan of that faction in Eberron, and now I have the perfect character to fit in it.  Longbows, cleansing flame, paladin spells, exorcism...I need to take a shot at this.

-Would anyone be interested in me posting a CO Diary of this campaign as it goes along?  It might be a bit more prose-y than most others, due to in-character hijinks and our group's knack for being quotable.  Could be a fun read, but I won't worry about it if there isn't much interest.

Okay!  So, it turns out the undead-heavy campaign I'll be playing in is the Age of Worms adventure path from Dungeon magazine.  I'd be lying if I said I wasn't pretty darn stoked for this.  I've heard good things about this campaign, and as much as I don't care much for some of what Paizo has released I've yet to be disappointed with their adventure paths.

We've got ideas for characters, with varying degrees of flesh attached to the bare-bones ideas:

-My fianceè is set on playing a Lesser Celadrin Sorceress, with the intent of making everything that so much as looks at her funny burning in fiery fire (and making creatures immune to fire burn anyway for their insolence).  It's a fairly low-end concept, but she's open to some fair amount of trickery to get her mileage out of it--Reserves of Strength, Easy Metamagic (Searing Spell), etc.  She wants as much KILL IT WITH FIRE as she can manage without making fights trivial.  She's amenable to some other types of spells so long as they primarily deal with making enemies worse, and yes--it HAS to be fire.

-I will be playing, at the request of the DM, a Wizard--most likely a Grey Elf or something similar to take that 3rd level substitution and get a +8 initiative bonus for owning a hummingbird.  I'm unsure how to go about taking prestige classes, but I rather like using an Acorn of Far Travel to take advantage of Hathran provided I can get some bits refluffed...combining the ability to cast any spell I have in my books with Circle Magic AND with my fianceè being willing to apply metamagic feats as I cast them could be awfully damn fun.  I'm playing a Wizard because my DM has never really experienced anything above mid-level play, and when told about using a combination of a Thought Bottle and Uncanny Forethought to get good-as-free standard action demiplanes/vacation homes the first word out of her mouth was "hot."  She wants to see what else the class with the second-worst chassis in the game can do.  Intend on taking Leadership at 6th level and scoring an Artificer, for Maximum Cheese without straight up breaking the campaign over my knee.

-We also have someone who insists on playing a Rogue--she's never had the chance to play a given rogue character more than one session, and she wants to get it out of the way.  In order to make her actually contribute something to the team, we're likely going to make a Daring Outlaw out of her--take Able Learner at first level, then move over into Swashbuckler after a few levels to make her worth something in combat as well as grabbing Penetrating Strike.  Maybe a few levels in Swordsage would be worthwhile, but I don't know--she's probably the least rules-competent in our group, and I don't think she's ever heard of Tome of Battle before, let alone the term "martial adept".

-Last and least (as far as planning) is the Rogue's husband, who will probably be playing a Cleric.  That's all we've got, really.  He's never played a spellcaster before, and considering nobody else has a hit die above d6 or any real armor proficiency we need someone who can maybe take a hit early on.  Druid was briefly considered, but considering the sheer number of things they need going for them it seemed a bit overkill for a new player.  (My first experience with D&D was as an epic-level druid, and I had no clue how to be effective whatsoever.  Still outperformed the fighter, but I still learned the lesson that druids are not for newbies due to sheer number of options at any given moment.)

At this point, we're looking at getting together Sunday afternoon to commit our characters to paper.  During this period of time, the most weight of character creation is going to fall on me--I won't be making the decisions for the players when making their characters, but my advice has a fair amount of weight.  I'm not looking for full builds at right now from you guys (unless you're looking to provide them), but rather input on  some areas of concern.

-Is Incantatrix worthwhile for a blasting sorceress?  Lots of metamagic feats for a build that could definitely use them, but I'm on the fence about it.  Wondering how it would best be applied, or if there's better options.

-Where should I go with the Cleric?  He needs to be able to melee early on, at least until reliable miss chances come online and the Rogue becomes the primary threat in melee combat.  But he's likely to always end up in the thick of things, regardless.  I'm probably going to provide him with an abbreviated spell list to weed out the lesser options (most likely cribbed from the Cleric Handbook), but what is good as far as a strong build that is also very simple?  I've looked at RSoP, but again I'm not sure if that is my best option here let alone how to employ it.

-For the Rogue's build, I probably will insert some levels of Swordsage in there to grab Assassin's Stance and whatever that feat is that gives Dex to damage.  But early on, how should I stagger the levels of Rogue and Swashbuckler?  I don't want to wait too long to dip at least one level in and grab Weapon Finesse, but I'm not sure when and how much to do so.

I apologize for the text wall, but this is where I'm at right now.  Any consideration and response would be appreciated.

What we have here is...a failure to communicate!  Or not quite, that's just what popped into my head.

What would you do in lieu of finishing up Ordained Champion?  Those last two levels aren't totally godawful, I suppose, but there have to be better options out there.

I've always been a fan of Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1 as an entry point into Ordained Champion.  That way you can trade off Inquisitor's gain of the Inquisition domain power for the Knowledge Devotion feat, allowing you to still retain the benefit of the extra knowledge skills for those opening three levels until you get into Champion--at which point you trade the extra Knowledge domain power away for an extra fighter feat, because you'll never take a level of Cleric again.  Or heck, if you don't like Knowledge Devotion just trade both of those off once you're a Champ.

And while we're throwing around the Ordained Champion and Bone Knight combo, might as well also mention Prestige Paladin if we're LG.  It has feat tax in the form of Mounted Combat, but you can grab that at level one at the cost of a couple cross-class skill points or wait until after your first level of Champion and trade off one of your domains.  You're taking ranks in Ride anyway and getting a steed that is at least sweet-looking, might as well make use of them.  In exchange, you get your weapon and armor proficiencies a bit earlier than you would otherwise, a handful of other abilities, and the ability to add the paladin spells to your spell list--the last of which is awesome.  And you don't lose a caster level for that dip, so there's no reason not to unless you can't spare the feat.

Honestly, the loss of a single caster level--or even three, if you decide to max out both Bone Knight AND Ordained Champion--isn't earth-shattering.  What you're trading off in spell capacity you're gaining in immunities, which are far more important to surviving high-level play than either hit points or armor class.  This means you're saving cash on the items you'd need to gain those immunities or saving spell slots on the spells you'd cast to have them temporarily.  Heck, it might even be worthwhile for an undead character to take this class, as it would provide redundant defenses against those abilities that allow their racial immunities to be bypassed (the DM could hand-wave that away as the classes' features being emulations of the undead racial immunities and similarly bypassed, but it would be both a houserule AND screw over non-undead Bone Knights).

So, thoughts?

Barbarian Pony, Barbarian Pony~
WaaaAAAaaaAAAUGH!
Barbarian Pony
I always wondered what true rage could be
'Til you all shared charge-pouncing with me
Use two-handers
For tons of blooood!
Power Attack
(And Leap Attack, my god)
Shock Trooper's obvious
And with these three feats
The core of your murdery build's complete!
So much blooood!
Barbarian Pony
One full attack and all your foes are now
Deaaaaaaaaaaad!

To Soro and Halinn:

I wasn't sure HOW permissive a DM would have to be to allow this combination for a PC, hence my question about whether it all works rather than flat-out asserting "omg tihs is teh best EVAR."  It seems good at first glance, but lot of valid points have been raised--especially when you get into the undeadening territory (although I will point out that the transition classes as written, after this exercise, still leave a lot to be desired).  This all leaves me to believe that while it could theoretically work, it's best left as an NPC than a PC.  At least I can get use out of it that way.

Also, Halinn, that's pretty boss.  Is being limited only to the school of Enchantment any real deterrent as opposed to going full-blown mind-affecting immunity?

To Drammor:

Human Heritage is an option, but it's a demonstrably sub-par one here.  By being a lesser planetouched, you become humanoid *and* lose your level adjustment without using a feat, which leaves room for Magic In The Blood.  Taking Human Heritage eats your first-level feat slot (unless flaws are involved), which eliminates the possibility of Magic In The Blood.  Plus you still have a +1 LA to deal with right off the bat.  4 skill points aren't worth it.


Thanks for your responses, everyone.  My question has been answered--some portions of it work, but overall it isn't legit.  MC Hammer can only weep.

Thanks for having a look over my idea here.  Let's see if I can answer your concerns.

-Magic In The Blood is a 1st-level only feat that allows your racial 1/day SLAs to become 3/day SLAs.  This is interesting in that it doesn't specify base racial SLAs--any SLAs you acquire as a result of templates that modify your race could be covered by this feat.  The half-fiend's 1/day SLAs now get three shots, as well as some of the Spellstitched abilities (for example: for your 1st-level SLAs from that template, allocate 3 uses to one spell and only one to another.  Now you have three of both!).  The value of this feat when you're stacking templates like this is immense.

-The wording before you get into the crunchy bits of this transition is muddy.  Is it pre-class fluffery, or a hard requirement that the tiefling that enter have LA +1?  Could I be a lesser tiefling that took a different template that gives +1 LA?  None of the book-standard rigmarole about class prerequisites is there, hence this discussion about "what is tiefling?"  I've always interpreted it as being eligible for anything that could be defined as a tiefling, whether it be regular, Lesser, or "lesser".

-The reason I would argue for gaining the benefits of being human at some point across the transition is that as you go along the transition class, the only racial features you end up with are those from the half-fiend template.  All of the tiefling's racial features, apart from some insignificant racial bonuses to skills, are integrated into the half-fiend.  So what's the base race of your half-fiend now?  You end up with less than if you had started as a base race and took the template, given that you also end with a net +0 to Cha...the transition class doesn't take into account the tiefling's -2.  So yeah, maybe throw another +2 to Cha in there at some point as well.

-This would be a combination for a fairly high-op/permissive game, or for use as a high-end villain.  The rules for LA buyoff allow this chicanery, but unless the DM explicitly approves of my end goals (one of them thinks this combination would be unparalleled munchkinry, another thinks it's the coolest thing since sliced goblins) I wouldn't be touching this.

In another thread they mentioned Invigorating Spellcaster from Dragon 311 (pg 45), which lets you add the Invigorating template to conjuration (healing) spells.  Invigorating spells remove any or all of the following templates: dazed, exhausted, fatigued, sickened, or stunned.

So you can cure any/all of those as an immediate action with Close Wounds.

I would've brought it up here myself, except that I saw that Dragon material wasn't allowed.  Healing Lorecall is an acceptable consolation prize, but 10 ranks in Heal if your primary class is Bard can be a painful proposition.