Min/Max Boards

Be a Warforged with Adamantine Body (there's an article online that mentions it increases your weight, but I can't seem to find it). Do the Dragonborn Ritual (it also increases your weight). Pick Deformity (Obese) - at least triple weight. Cast Iron Body - ten times your weight, total 30 times. Cast Giant Size - up to 4096 times your weight, total 122180 times regular weight.

Well, I’m back…
I had already discovered this thread in the handbook/handbook discussion section a while ago, but did not have enough time to comment on it to the necessary extent. Granted, doing it now is a bit of a thread necromancy, but maybe I can add some more perspectives to this duel.
Note to mods: I have seen in the reply function that usually after 120 days of not posting in a thread, a new thread should be considered. However, this is the handbook discussion section, and I hesitate to start a second discussion thread on this issue. In case this is a problem, this post (and any answers to it) could be moved to form a new discussion thread in the handbook section). Thanks.
Now on, to my remarks:
Basically, the main points Endarire brought up with this wizard vs fighter duel – and supported by the majority of posters here - are that such a duel can show two things:

• How much more powerful a wizard is than a fighter,
• And that this already happens with just the core rules, illustrating how broken the core rules are.

I disagree that the duel is proof for this.

Those who know my earlier posts of course may not be much surprised. However, maybe the reasons why I see such a duel not upholding any of the above two assertions are – at least in part – new.
I’ll go through Lycanthromancer’s duel description step by step and will point out areas where I think the rules were interpreted wrongly, plus general remarks/other observations (e.g. on tactical oddities that I perceive).
This fresh perspective on the duel is also needed imo since this duel, ever since it first appeared on the WotC boards, is often used as the standard benchmark for the two assertions above and is quoted so often with little or even without any questioning in the typical fighter vs wizard debates (like in this thread….).

Pre-duel-preparation

(click to show/hide)

First of all, in my view Lycanthromancer’s wizard achieved the remarkable feat to lose this duel before it even began.

• One reason was already pointed out by SorO_Lost above: Lycanthromancer himself set the rules in such a way (rule 11 on losing: “transportation out of the plane”) that he limited a wizard’s many methods to leave the prime material plane. And since his wizard started astrally projected, plus his body was stashed away in a non-dimensional bag of holding, he clearly left said prime material plane (which was the plane they were fighting in for all purposes of the rules).
• Another reason for having lost before the duel even started is that putting the body from which the astral projection originates into a bag of holding could easily be interpreted by many DMs to mean severing the astral chord (which is incorporal as per DNG and thus cannot remain in connection between a non-dimensional space and another plane of existence). The moment the wizard did it to prepare for the duel, he died.

But these are really unforced errors on the side of Lyanthromancer and not really representative of a power match displayed by wizard and fighter.
More on pre-duel preparation (just some side notes actually, since they had no impact on the match, but might have had in a longer confrontation):

• The clone needs to be done just prior to the duel since it starts to decay immediately without the necessary magical preservation (or laboratory that does not fit into the bag and with its many sharp points would jeopardise the bag).
• The simulacrum – while it has 10HD – does not have any spellcasting ability, since only special abilities (not class abilities) of the original wizard are copied (the core rules are pretty clear on what constitutes a special ability. Spellcasting is not among those).

The buff round – wizard actions

(click to show/hide)

The gate spells should imo not have worked as intended. There are quite a few problems, actually:

• It is difficult to imagine how the core wizard would even know about such creatures. The DC for identifying a half-celestial great wyrm gold dragon is 51. Even a level 20 wizard with INT 34 and maxed ranks will have difficulty to know about them (and arguably he cannot take 20 on the knowledge roll). But let us assume a wizard able to boost in core his knowledge arcane skill to a 41 for safely identifying the dragons by taking 10 ahead of combat (I guess it should be possible).
• Secondly, and more importantly, the gate can only be max 20ft wide. Thus, the colossal (30ft space) dragons will not fit through. Both spells fail, and no golden dragons appear (and thus the only noteworthy offense of the wizard for the first rounds is no more since the fighter had a rod of absorption. And as an afterthought, the gate spell calls such CR 30 creatures “willing or unwilling”, so it is likely that at least one of the dragons will seek revenge/just punishment for the wizard afterwards, resulting in a likely death of the wizard.)
• Another problem is that while in time stop, the wizard cannot communicate with the dragons (or other creatures) that appear. So, they appear but have no task set for them when the time stop ends – arguably this mean they leave at that moment, making the gate spell redundant.
• A (potential) problem would be – depending on your interpretation of “invulnerable” in the time stop spell description – whether the calling function of gate could be used in a time stop at all.
• Finally, the spell does not at all mention that the wizard can give the called creature(s) continually orders of any kind – he can only command a 1 round/lvl service, but nothing more. Fighting for the wizard is one such service, but the exact way is open for the DM – likely the called creature(s) will buff first/check what powers the enemy has before attacking blindly. Certainly the called creatures are no slaves, and this becomes even clearer when comparing the wording of the gate spell with that of the monster summoning spells (where, for instance, the expression “to the best of its ability” is used).

Other issues of the buff round (that likely do not affect the duel as much as the gate spell, but would still in some cases make the wizard lose or weaken his power):

• The familiar, when fixing the ring gates on the heads of the 30ft space dragons, and giving them rings of spell storing, actually leaves the 5ft necessary distance from the caster for time stop to still affect it. Thus, the familiar will fail to equip the called dragons with items and is on its own from the buff round onwards (and possibly a target for the fighter?).
• Tossing the ring gates on the ground to look through only AFTER erecting a prismatic wall and wall of stone means that – even when during the time stop – line of effect was not maintained to the called creatures and thus they are no longer controlled. Might have been handled a bit differently, though, by holding them in the hand and looking at them all the time.
• The wall of iron can only be tipped intentionally with a DC 40 STR check. But it will randomly fall to where the wizard will be able to turtle, anyhow (without hitting one of the called creatures). I think.
• The limited wish emulating the contingency effect will imo not automatically bring along a dimension door (another spell that needs to be wished for or cast from memory separately). Also, it can be argued, that the casting time of the contingency (10 mins) still applies for combining it with the other spell, and not the casting time of the limited wish. I’m not sure here. Otherwise a nice idea to get a contingency spell up quickly in combat.
• Having said that, the condition for the contingency “go off any time my opponent was about to hit me with something that could actually affect me” is way too vague and thus will not work with many DMs. Or worse, it would work the moment the fighter does something that remotely has a chance to affect the wizard, but is extremely unlikely to happen. Anyway, the contingency spell is not an interpreter of anything (it is not sentient) and will only react to events that can be objectively described (“whenever something comes within 10ft of me” or “when I cast feather fall” etc.).
• Shapechanging into an incorporal creature like a greater shadow is probably not a good idea, since the wizard’s equipment is corporal and will thus meld into the new form as per alter self spell (on which shapechange is based) and becomes non-functional. This means, for instance, that the contingency no longer works, since the focus circlet will meld into the new form (more complicated would be what the non-functionality of the bag of holding with the original body entails when it merges with the incorporal body, considering the fate of the astral chord as discussed above). The ioun stone of +1 caster level is an exception as, while corporal, will still orbit the head of the shadow wizard. However, this will no longer be the case the moment it moves into the ground (where it cannot follow), such as when the contingency is triggered. That will mean the caster level is 20 again and thus the wizard will be unable to control 42 HD creatures. Ah, and line of effect will end, anyhow, since the ring gates are also corporal and can no longer be held by the incorporal wizard (or meld into his new form).

Some observations at this point:

• It is noteworthy that in general, one of the major disadvantages of the allegedly “broken” spell shapechange is that in most cases the equipment becomes non-functional with the most powerful forms. That is a quite a drawback at high levels when items from wbl constitue a large proportion of any character’s power.
• We can also conclude from the prep round that the wizard through various imo justifiable rules interpretations likely miscast the gate spell, completely neutering his only meaningful offense vs the fighter. Gate as an allegedly “broken” spell has many problems when actually used in practice – and at high-level play, a harsh DM may have/should have no problem at all to let the wizard player face the consequences of his casting mistakes. Sometimes great power necessitates great understanding of how things work!
• Most importantly, the actions of the prep round and even before can be easily interpreted in such a way that the wizard either died before combat started (astral body disconnected from original body) or lost due to the rules set (wizard having left the prime material plane as per astral projection spell), or cast gate and contingency in such a way to have likely lost control of the dragons (in case they had appeared at all, so insert other random high-HD core monster like two solars), also ending in his likely defeat without the fighter having to do more than just turtle, too (or doing nothing at all).

The buff round – fighter actions

(click to show/hide)

The fighter buff round (the original one) is a bit of a riddle for me.

• EITHER the wall of stone was directly behind the prismatic sphere, meaning then it would have been impossible for the fighter to get through the sphere – which is necessary for the sphere’s special effects to affect the fighter (the sphere is not triggered by touching it, but by passing through it as per spell description). So, no saves necessary and thus the fighter just bounces of the wall of stone, unable to pass the sphere. He would then just have needed to fight the called creature(s) next to the dome. Or withdraw to within the parameters allowed by the duel’s rules. Or do some defensive maneuver or whatever.
• OR the wall of stone was far enough behind the prismatic sphere for a creature to pass through. Then, of course the failed save would have meant the fighter loses (although it is strange apparently that no luck blade to grant a re-roll was on the fighter’s equipment list). In the reloaded scenario, however, the fighter would have been inside the sphere and in front of the wall of stone. The calle(d) creatures would not have been able to affect him anymore (prismatic sphere stops all effects going through), including the wizard (provided the ring gates trick would be legal somehow, see above). Meanwhile, the fighter would have been able to hack through the wall of stone (much better strategy than hacking … at the ground ?!!!).
• As an aside, charging needs line of sight. So the only thing the fighter could have done would have been to charge the prismatic wall (and thus not passing it), but not through it.
• Finally, quite a few in this threads and other threads discussing the duel, including those awed by the wizard’s alleged power, were quite disappointed about the fighter player’s use of a buff round that even allowed him to move close to the wizard.

Round one/take 2 – wizard actions

(click to show/hide)

Only minor nitpicks here:

• It is interesting that the dragons acted first once Lycanthromancer’s wizard had won initiative. The gate spell does not specify that the called creatures act on their caller’s turn (this usually gets pointed out by the rules in such cases), so it is likely they should even have acted after the fighter (being dragons with no DEX bonus and only receiving +2 to DEX from the template).
• The dual implosions are nice, but once again it needs to be mentioned that the dragons are not the slave of the calling wizard (as per dominate, or even summon monster spells), but they are played by the DM. They likely would not have attacked right away, but buffed their defenses first, or making somehow sure that the fighter would not get away or is not an illusion or whatever.
• Then, I am not quite sure how a 40ft burst of disjunction hitting the fighter could have avoided the gold dragons that are apparently assumed to be in melee distance (thus neutering at least one of their ring gates and ending the control of gate and any way of the wizard to affect the fighter). But that’s not really important, I guess.

So round one – wizard actions are quite OK (tellingly, not having much effect on the fighter).

Round one take 2 – fighter actions

(click to show/hide)

Attacking the ground with the first (and best) iterative attack and then using the rest on one of the dragons is an unworthy action to even consider for a level 20 character, and has already been commented on in this thread. But it is definitely legal . It may be noted that not one of the remaining attacks landing a hit on a likely AC 47 dragon is still a bit unlucky, but, similarly to previous minor oddities, that does not really matter.

Round two take 2 – wizard actions

(click to show/hide)

What matters more, though, are some of the following issues:

• How was the half-celestial great wyrm dragon at -10 power attacking even able to sunder the main weapon of the fighter? I mean, the rod probably was ruled to be mace-like (thus no improvised weapon?) and enchanted with an enhancement bonus of around +5. That would mean hardness 20 (30 with adamantine metal, common for the main weapon of a level 20 fighter) and 60 hit points (90+ with adamantine rod).
• Additionally, the action of the simulacrum is irrelevant since, as already outlined, it has no spellcasting ability.
• The way to win for Lycanthromancer with a maze is also quite lame, since it only became a win through (his) setting or the rules, making a maze spell way more powerful than is intended by the core rules. It could be ruled even that being sent to somewhere “extradimensional” is not even in breach of the rules of the duel – or even more of a case could be made that Lycanthromancer’s wizard lost in the buff round when he put his body into a bag of holding (which is nondimensional; difficult to argue that one is in breach of the rules of transportation away from the plane and not the other).

Roundup of the duel from a rules perspective

(click to show/hide)

So, to sum up where I perceive the biggest flaws of the duel:

• imo the wizard lost already before the duel began, since either he severed the astral chord himself, or left the material plane, or both.
• In case he had avoided these mistakes, he would not have been able to call the colossal dragons through the 20ft gates.
• And provided he had called some other big nasties to fight for him, the instances where – from his own description – he would have lost control were many and thus likely had lost as well (note that the contingency was only worded vs the fighter, not his own creatures out of control!).
• Moreover, I have shown plenty of reasons why the key spells used to win the duel for the wizard are not working the way as used in the duel.
• And all of this without the fighter even entering the picture, whose described tactics- as already pointed out in this thread – were awful for a level 20 character.

If anything, Lycanthromancer’s duel description is a really good example of how difficult it is to play high-level casters without accidently killing themselves (providing another good point of why the core game is balanced even at high levels), or miscasting and thus losing quickly to the lethal level 20 challenges.

Some more observations from a tactics perspective

(click to show/hide)

The setup of the duel was heavily biased in favour of the caster:

• an infinite plain for the wizard
• being allowed a buff round,
• having full spells and
• enough XP to craft and cast XP cost spells without losing a level.

This greatly favours a caster because

• Concealment and cover by natural or inhabited terrain make spellcasting more difficult (which needs line of effect and sight for most attacks)
• A caster, with a buff round, can make more use of said buff round, say to shore up his greater vulnerabilities (e.g. for a wizard low AC, low hp, low fort save etc)
• Full spells available allows to nova which is not the standard for the game and thus reveals little about balance
• XP spent at no penalty for character (like, being a level lower with lower wbl as well) means just cheating wbl and sidestepping the restrictions set on the most powerful spells like gate.

Other observations of note illustrating how little impressive the performance of Lycanthromancer’s wizard was in this duel:

• The mentioned alternative spell combos of rock to mud and mud to rock or reverse gravity and prismatic sphere do not convince me. The fighter had a flying speed of 100’ (and likely escape pods like a dimension door effect or whatever). Thus I do not see these combos as endangering this level 20 fighter (or most lvl 20 builds known to me, for that matter).
• Interestingly, the ring gates and the rings of spell turning (if it had been possible for the familiar to actually put them on by the rules) vanish with the called creatures after 20 rounds. Possibly the wizard can ask them back – but this already transcends the “fight for me” service that he asked of them (and the ring gates won’t come off easily). So, near 280k of gold gone in this duel – even if successful, that is a cost of 1/3 of the wizard’s wbl. I doubt even a joker monk at level 20 spends more in just one fight

Finally, on the fighter:

• While Lycanthromancer committed many rules mistakes imo that would have with strict interpretation resulted in his loss, the fighter player apparently had no idea how to either build a level 20 character with the core rules (and splatbook effects I did not perceive at all, excepting the raptorian race), nor to play one at such a high level.
• The fighter was supposed to KNOW all his life that one day he would go against a wizard. Strangely, he acted as if he had no clue at all what spells can do and how to interpret them when he sees their effect (the spellcraft skill, even when taken cross-class, has fixed DCs and is quite affordable for a level 20 character to boost; and apparently the fighter even had arcane sight on). It is as if the wizard would have considered staying next to the fighter (not knowing about his ability to full attack) would be a great idea to start combat so as to better use his touch spells.
• Having said that, going to and staying in the vicinity of two apparently gated massive creatures next to you is utterly absurd (note that the fighter would have heard the command for service given by the wizard). Even more absurd is to play the wizard’s game and exchanging full attacks with said creatures that are likely only present temporarily.
• As already hinted by my assessment above, a better strategy of the fighter would have been to turtle as well and thus let the only real offensive strategy of the wizard (i.e. gate spell) dissipate harmlessly. Likewise, all buffs but the stonewall would have gone away over time on the wizard’s side – whose standard “scry-and-die” tactic or “withdraw to other plane/MMM, relearn spells and nova again” strategy were blocked by the duel’s rules not to leave the plane.
• It is very unfortunate that the fighter’s player never even posted or voiced his opinion on any thread, nor is the exact build and tactics available. So we are all quite dependant on Lycanthromancer’s perspective on this, which may be biased.

So, taking everything together, I have no clue why such a bad performance on both sides of the duel (fighter on the tactical side and wizard on the rules side) is paraded time and again as evidence of wizard superiority in the core rules.
But maybe there are some explanations and/or different rules interpretations that I’d like to hear, or something that I overlooked. In the thread above, so far, some of my concerns have already been raised, but most were not.

- Giacomo

• Dead Eye is one of the possible best feats for this build, adding Dex to your throws. It also has low pre-reqs and can be taken early. However, it requires your DM allow Dragon Compendium, which is not a given (since it has so many cheese feats like this one). It also doesn't work against anything immune to crit.
• Deadeye Shot denies enemy dex bonus to AC if you ready your attack and an ally then succeeds in hitting the target.
• Pathfinder has a feat which aggregates all your attack damage into a single attack, which basically entirely negates DR. Unfortunately, I don't remember the feat name. Anyone remember what it's called?