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General D&D Discussion / Re: 4th Edition and other editions: Did the Fighter get nice things?
« on: October 05, 2012, 05:10:58 AM »
Nevermind, double post
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To add my 2cents, before 3e magic may be pretty powerful, but had pretty severe drawbacks. Wanna craft your own stuff? Be ready to see your ability scores reduced.That's why you crafted while jacking someone else's body with Magic Jar. Moreover, this primarily penaltized fighters, who needed to be much better at sucking a wizard off, so that he deigns to craft them stuff that was absolutely necessary for contributing.
Haste costed you years of life.Again, fighters' problem.
No concentration checks, a single point of damage was enough to disrupt your spellcasting, and you were gonna get disrupted whitout a meat shield because most spells weren't instant.Only at low levels. Past about 7th level only the most elite monsters and people decked with specific magic items (see above about that) had a chance of ever touching a wizard. And you only hauled fighters around because the assumption of a charmed/summoned retinue was considered a bad taste before the advent of charop boards. And unless you mostly fought outerplanar stuff you only needed this retinue to clear dungeons faster, by not blowing resources on minor enemies.
One I'm actually sort of surprised nobody has brought up (and one which may generate some backlash)
The player base, by and large, does not want a perfectly balanced game.
3.5 was unbalanced; 3.5 was also very successful. 4e fixed most of the balance issues--and was not nearly as successful.
It doesn't actually matter who attacked whom first.Except... it does. Your position literally is "I don't want to admit that there is a wrong side in this conflict, even though there clearly IS a wrong side". As the biggest reason why discerning right from wrong - or less wrong from more wrong - in major real-world conflicts is often hard (incomplete or intentionally warped information) is abscent in DnDland, which we see through God's eyes, we can actually tell which side bears main responsibilty for an ongoing conflict. And in DnD's context it is generally not going to be dwarves.
My point was that if the PC-lead goblins wiped out the dwarves, Olescamo would consider the PCs to be "monsters" regardless of how laudable the goblins would consider their actions.And he will be correct.
But if the PC-lead dwarves wiped out the goblins, everything would be ok because the Good-aligned team won.And here you are misinterpreting his position.
The fact is, any setting that encourages killing sentient beings, presents genocide as an acceptable solution, and mechanically rewards combat and pillaging cannot be based on the Renaissance ideals of Human(-oid)ism and Enlightenment.Actual Renaissaince ideals (ones that people used to guide their lives) were "hatred, greed, superstition and intolerance". Not trolling here. "Renaissance" period = witch hunts and religious wars.
Let's imagine a situation: A tribe of goblins and a clan of dwarves have been living next to each other for longer than even the dwarves can remember. A long, long time ago, one of the groups attacked the other for some reason, but it was so long ago that neither group remembers who made the first attack or what it was even about.Here's the problem: your imagined situation has nothing to do with the realities of DnD. In DnD everyone knows perfectly well why goblins attack their neighbors - goblin society is dominated by worship of an evil god who keeps them in the state of savagery and teaches them to hate and attack other races, in some versions even their entire race is spawned by an evil god to be a blight on the world. And if you tell to me that "no race can be universally evil", I'll remind you, that while goblins indeed aren't universally evil (but culturally indoctrinated), free will in DnD is canonically easy to subvert, with the undead transformation being the prime example.
Frank and K's Tomes make a pretty good case for D&D being set closer to the Iron Age than medieval Europe. I can't explain it better than they can, so I'll quote.No, they don't make a good case for it. Only their own vague "setting" is set in the Iron Age. Ostensibly. Their assumptions have no relevance for other settings, like FR (much nicer version of late Renaissance with practically late 20th Century mentality in "good-aligned" parts of the setting), or Eberron (Industrial Age) or Greyhawk (early Renaissaince to high Middle Ages).
We have people today who can "punch away death". They're called doctors. I used the word "punch" because you seem to think that that's all mundane warriors can do.No I don't think so. However, I know for certain, than even professional authors, who almost certainly have far more active imaginations than any of us here, have severe problems thinking of things for warriors to do besides punching even in the worlds where warrior training explicitly makes you a superhuman. Even in, say, One Piece uberwarriors basically just punch stuff, only in increasingly over-the-top ways, 95% of the time. In fact, I already stated that as one of the reasons of my negative opinion on warriors without extra sources of power past low levels.
BUt what does a doctor do? It heals, with mundane means. Heals things that normally would be a ridiculous notion to be healed....without magic. Or more literally, there's actually therapies that involve trauma of different sorts to heal. Chiropractors, electro-shock therapy, accupuncture, massage, etc. Open your mind to possibilities, and you'll see a number of "magical" things that can be achieved through mundane means.See, the problem is - in DnD a 5th level cleric does everything a doctor can do better and faster, while packing a wagon of other abilities. Sure, you can give another character the abilty to heal any wound or cure any disease by 6 seconds of using acupuncture, no problem. But why are you calling this "mundane means" again, if there is nothing mundane about it?
Let me put it this way. Nikola Tesla once claimed he could split the earth in two with nothing more than a few well-timed explosions. He actually did use the earth as a conductor to create a 130' lightning bolt. The man was not magical, but he was a genius. There's a man who can survive in freezing conditions easily and actually climbed Mount Everest wearing nothing but sandals and bike shorts. There are people who can channel energy through their hands, making them warm to the touch....burning to the touch, actually, and I'm not talking about myths of the Tibetan Monks or something, this is actually documented. And in real life? We are level 6 at most, most of us are level 2 or 3 by mid adulthood. So just imagine what things a true high-level person would be able to do in real life.A true high-level person is not a concept from real life. Of course, by definition he will be capable of miracles unthinkable for us. So why call him mundane, again?
Their options aren't necessarily just "punch something harder". It could be "punch the Wall of Force away", or "punch to prevent caster from casting" or "punch away death". Your blindsight? Why not? Why not just some sort of ESP-style sense that grants you Blindsight? Why not some method of countering casters using mundane means of resistance?See, that's what I mean. You're talking about "countering casters using mundane means of resilience", while describing feats that are anything but mundane. Why do you insist on calling your "mundane warrior" mundane, when it can punch away death? So that people writing powers for warrior classes will be misguided by this and not sure what sort of abilities actually are appropriate for them?
False, as established MUCH earlier in the thread.Then it is established wrongly.
Common infantry have no better armor than leather and if they were lucky, chain.Excuse me, but... lolwut?
However, firearms require less physical ability and training to load and fire rapidly than crossbows do, especially once cartridges were invented. The majority of any army is common infantry. Why outfit your entire army with weapons that work best against maybe 10% of the enemy army?That's the equivalent of asking "why make anti-tank weapons the centerpiece of your ground armament system, if enemy tanks are far less numerous than infantry soldiers?"
In D&D, magic items are easily made, and in most settings assumed to exist as you need them.Please do not confuse 3.X/4E with DnD in general. Even in 3.X there are settings where magic items are not supposed to be easily accessible, such as Midnight, IIRC.
It's a trivial matter to make a new one. You go to a magic shop, ask for your weapon to be enhanced, and wait a bit, boom, you have an enhanced weapon.And even in default DnD 3.X you aquite often only have magic items easily accessible because you can craft them yourself. I've only seen outright magic shops in the games where GM clearly decided that PCs already broke the game, so what's the point of not having them. Otherwise people who can craft tend to feel that their XP is more precious that your money and/or only are willing to sell to major allies and supporters.
Again I ask: why is it such a bad thing that fighters gain pseudo-magical abilities (AKA Charles Atlas superpowers)? This way they are still not magic, but superhuman.Two reasons:
The thing is... Firearms started displacing crossbows and relegating them to hunting weapons very quickly precisely because of better penetration/stopping effect. By the end of the first quarter of 16th century, as evidenced by the Battle of Pavia and others, arquebusiers already largely displaced non-firearms missile troops in the best European armies. In Japan - where armor was both less common amond soldiers and usually inferior in quality, compared to European standards, arquebuse displaced bow as the main missile weapon and changed actual infantry tactics within less than 35 years after their introduction by Eupopean traders.
Ummm... no. This thread has gone to great lengths to establish the strenghts and weaknesses of early firearms. Being flat-out better was not one of them. In fact, Crossbows were probably better for a long time - more accurate, greater effective range, same or similar penetration.
I disagree here, too. With those superheroes running about it's quite simple to make a firearm that's not portable by a regular human, but quite portable for a superhuman hero.Yes, but where is the impetus for doing so? Very early firearms still are unvieldy and unreliable, when the main deciding factor of battles is the difference in superhuman abilties, their advantages are harder to see. In addition, if the arsenal of magic weapons is replenished very slowly (which is true for pre 3.X DnD editions), you'll have the cirle of "magic bows are relatively common because heroes of the past were bowmen -> heroes of the present aim to become bowmen because magic bows are relatively common".