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Messages - FatR

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Nevermind, double post

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To add my 2cents, before 3e magic may be pretty powerful, but had pretty severe drawbacks. Wanna craft your own stuff? Be ready to see your ability scores reduced.
          That's why you crafted while jacking someone else's body with Magic Jar. Moreover, this primarily penaltized fighters, who needed to be much better at sucking a wizard off, so that he deigns to craft them stuff that was absolutely necessary for contributing.

Haste costed you years of life.
           Again, fighters' problem.

No concentration checks, a single point of damage was enough to disrupt your spellcasting, and you were gonna get disrupted whitout a meat shield because most spells weren't instant.
          Only at low levels. Past about 7th level only the most elite monsters and people decked with specific magic items (see above about that) had a chance of ever touching a wizard. And you only hauled fighters around because the assumption of a charmed/summoned retinue was considered a bad taste before the advent of charop boards. And unless you mostly fought outerplanar stuff you only needed this retinue to clear dungeons faster, by not blowing resources on minor enemies.

          That's before we even touch supplements like Skills & Powers/Spells & Magic which literally allowed you to duplicate everything a fighter had, but still retain some clerical spheres (or combine everytning you cared about on both wizard and cleric spell lists). That's before we even touch spells from supplements, which included at least 3 superior versions of Contingency and ways to deal with problems like high saves and spell resistance. All that 2E fighter has on 3E fighter is, at most, 2-3 extra levels of relevance, before going obsolete. It wasn't even contested at that time, that a party babysits its wizard for the first 3-4 levels, and then the wizards babysits the entire rest of the party past 7-9. People seem to mostly remember the meatgrinder of low levels, where your comments on a wizard's vulnerability are true, because that's what was played most often.

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General D&D Discussion / Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« on: March 02, 2012, 03:36:27 AM »
At this point we can only hope that their polls and whatever are nothing more than a marketing stunt. But, really, I don't hold much hopes about 5E anymore.

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General D&D Discussion / Re: 4E Lessons for 5E
« on: February 29, 2012, 03:55:38 PM »
One I'm actually sort of surprised nobody has brought up (and one which may generate some backlash)

The player base, by and large, does not want a perfectly balanced game. 

3.5 was unbalanced; 3.5 was also very successful.  4e fixed most of the balance issues--and was not nearly as successful.

      Or... it might have something to do with 4e far-from-perfect balance being bought at the price people weren't willing to pay, like reduction of the gameplay to the single dimension of HP attrition (that happened way too slowly, too) or having to deal with, like, 100 goddamn pages of errata.

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General D&D Discussion / Re: 4E Lessons for 5E
« on: February 29, 2012, 03:43:49 PM »
       Key lessons to learn from 4E, in no particular order:

1. Poor art direction is highly detrimental for your game.

2. Poor initial adventure support is catastrophic.

3. If you release only one setting book early on, it should not take a huge dump on the setting in question.

4. You should not insult parts of your fanbase (lesson learned, apparently).

5. Another rules-heavy dungeoncrawl-and-gridmap-focused version of DnD must compete on the market already saturated with the same thing (lesson might be learned).

6. Deliver things you promise and do not promise what you do not intend to deliver. My personal opinion about 4E started turning strongly negative when I realized that the magic items Christmas Tree is still there.

7. Game balance by itself does not create an enjoyable game, and it is not even the most important component of an enjoyable game. It is a highly desirable trait, but if your gameplay is generally unappealing, who cares if it is balanced.

8. Cutting off third-party support for your game does not benefit you.

6
It doesn't actually matter who attacked whom first.
     Except... it does. Your position literally is "I don't want to admit that there is a wrong side in this conflict, even though there clearly IS a wrong side". As the biggest reason why discerning right from wrong - or less wrong from more wrong - in major real-world conflicts is often hard (incomplete or intentionally warped information) is abscent in DnDland, which we see through God's eyes, we can actually tell which side bears main responsibilty for an ongoing conflict. And in DnD's context it is generally not going to be dwarves.

My point was that if the PC-lead goblins wiped out the dwarves, Olescamo would consider the PCs to be "monsters" regardless of how laudable the goblins would consider their actions.
      And he will be correct.

But if the PC-lead dwarves wiped out the goblins, everything would be ok because the Good-aligned team won. 
     And here you are misinterpreting his position.

The fact is, any setting that encourages killing sentient beings, presents genocide as an acceptable solution, and mechanically rewards combat and pillaging cannot be based on the Renaissance ideals of Human(-oid)ism and Enlightenment. 
      Actual Renaissaince ideals (ones that people used to guide their lives) were "hatred, greed, superstition and intolerance". Not trolling here. "Renaissance" period = witch hunts and religious wars.

      That aside, I have three questions for you:
     1)Do you condemn the action genre in all of its forms on principle, because of its inherent violence?
     2)Do you have religious reasons to believe that sapience inherently bestows free will (and therefore DnD saying that it doesn't offends you)?
     3)Can you quote me a single actual DnD source where good-aligned PCs are encouraged to kill noncombatants?

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Let's imagine a situation:  A tribe of goblins and a clan of dwarves have been living next to each other for longer than even the dwarves can remember.  A long, long time ago, one of the groups attacked the other for some reason, but it was so long ago that neither group remembers who made the first attack or what it was even about.
       Here's the problem: your imagined situation has nothing to do with the realities of DnD. In DnD everyone knows perfectly well why goblins attack their neighbors - goblin society is dominated by worship of an evil god who keeps them in the state of savagery and teaches them to hate and attack other races, in some versions even their entire race is spawned by an evil god to be a blight on the world. And if you tell to me that "no race can be universally evil", I'll remind you, that while goblins indeed aren't universally evil (but culturally indoctrinated), free will in DnD is canonically easy to subvert, with the undead transformation being the prime example.


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Sorry, double post

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Frank and K's Tomes make a pretty good case for D&D being set closer to the Iron Age than medieval Europe.  I can't explain it better than they can, so I'll quote.
     No, they don't make a good case for it. Only their own vague "setting" is set in the Iron Age. Ostensibly. Their assumptions have no relevance for other settings, like FR (much nicer version of late Renaissance with practically late 20th Century mentality in "good-aligned" parts of the setting), or Eberron (Industrial Age) or Greyhawk (early Renaissaince to high Middle Ages).

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General D&D Discussion / Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« on: February 17, 2012, 05:28:32 AM »
      That's why looking to Internet for feedback on 5E is even more of a bad idea than enslaving yourself to the voice of vocal minority in general. At the moment fanbase is divided into antagonistic camps with the camp that still stands around WotC banner on their own forum being full of sycophants, thanks to moderators taking a side in the previous edition war. Seeing, also, how awful their polls are, I actually hope that their "listening to the public" is nothing more than a marketing stunt.

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Sorry, doubled the post accidentally...

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We have people today who can "punch away death".  They're called doctors.  I used the word "punch" because you seem to think that that's all mundane warriors can do.
       No I don't think so. However, I know for certain, than even professional authors, who almost certainly have far more active imaginations than any of us here, have severe problems thinking of things for warriors to do besides punching even in the worlds where warrior training explicitly makes you a superhuman. Even in, say, One Piece uberwarriors basically just punch stuff, only in increasingly over-the-top ways, 95% of the time. In fact, I already stated that as one of the reasons of my negative opinion on warriors without extra sources of power past low levels.

BUt what does a doctor do?  It heals, with mundane means.  Heals things that normally would be a ridiculous notion to be healed....without magic.  Or more literally, there's actually therapies that involve trauma of different sorts to heal.  Chiropractors, electro-shock therapy, accupuncture, massage, etc.  Open your mind to possibilities, and you'll see a number of "magical" things that can be achieved through mundane means.
          See, the problem is - in DnD a 5th level cleric does everything a doctor can do better and faster, while packing a wagon of other abilities. Sure, you can give another character the abilty to heal any wound or cure any disease by 6 seconds of using acupuncture, no problem. But why are you calling this "mundane means" again, if there is nothing mundane about it?

         In fact, I want to ask clearly - what do you want to accomplish by sticking this greatly misleading label to characters? To who, I remind you, you're already attaching the "personal enhancement" them, which already can give people all the wrong ideas about what these characters are supposed to do?
           
Let me put it this way.  Nikola Tesla once claimed he could split the earth in two with nothing more than a few well-timed explosions.  He actually did use the earth as a conductor to create a 130' lightning bolt.  The man was not magical, but he was a genius.  There's a man who can survive in freezing conditions easily and actually climbed Mount Everest wearing nothing but sandals and bike shorts.  There are people who can channel energy through their hands, making them warm to the touch....burning to the touch, actually, and I'm not talking about myths of the Tibetan Monks or something, this is actually documented.  And in real life?  We are level 6 at most, most of us are level 2 or 3 by mid adulthood.  So just imagine what things a true high-level person would be able to do in real life.
         A true high-level person is not a concept from real life. Of course, by definition he will be capable of miracles unthinkable for us. So why call him mundane, again?

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Their options aren't necessarily just "punch something harder".  It could be "punch the Wall of Force away", or "punch to prevent caster from casting" or "punch away death".  Your blindsight?  Why not?  Why not just some sort of ESP-style sense that grants you Blindsight?  Why not some method of countering casters using mundane means of resistance?
      See, that's what I mean. You're talking about "countering casters using mundane means of resilience", while describing feats that are anything but mundane. Why do you insist on calling your "mundane warrior" mundane, when it can punch away death? So that people writing powers for warrior classes will be misguided by this and not sure what sort of abilities actually are appropriate for them?
 

14
False, as established MUCH earlier in the thread.
     Then it is established wrongly.

Common infantry have no better armor than leather and if they were lucky, chain.
     Excuse me, but... lolwut?
http://www.google.ru/search?q=landsknecht&hl=ru&newwindow=1&prmd=imvnsb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=_WgxT4uAM-jR4QSK7-nhBA&ved=0CDYQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=909

    Breastplates, breastplates everywhere. And against plate armor firearms had an advantage not only in carrying more cynetic energy - compared to a common 45-kg-or-less crossbow - but in transferring more of it to target (contrary to your argument, lead bullets were not nearly as prone to sliding off armor's curves, compared to crossbow bolts - physics work for everyone equally). More than that, firearms wounds were much harder to treat by that time's medicine.
 
However, firearms require less physical ability and training to load and fire rapidly than crossbows do, especially once cartridges were invented. The majority of any army is common infantry. Why outfit your entire army with weapons that work best against maybe 10% of the enemy army?
      That's the equivalent of asking "why make anti-tank weapons the centerpiece of your ground armament system, if enemy tanks are far less numerous than infantry soldiers?" 

     I admit though, that my knowledge is rather superificial. So, if you can provide some examples of crossbowmen playing a greater role than firearms-using soldiers in European battles past the date I named (first quarter of 16th century), I'll admit that I was wrong..



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In D&D, magic items are easily made, and in most settings assumed to exist as you need them. 
     Please do not confuse 3.X/4E with DnD in general. Even in 3.X there are settings where magic items are not supposed to be easily accessible, such as Midnight, IIRC.

It's a trivial matter to make a new one.  You go to a magic shop, ask for your weapon to be enhanced, and wait a bit, boom, you have an enhanced weapon.
      And even in default DnD 3.X you aquite often only have magic items easily accessible because you can craft them yourself. I've only seen outright magic shops in the games where GM clearly decided that PCs already broke the game, so what's the point of not having them. Otherwise people who can craft tend to feel that their XP is more precious that your money and/or only are willing to sell to major allies and supporters.


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As about how to solve that, I'm personally inclined towards the solution of make the "Fighter" class like 5-6 levels long (because I like some low fantasy in my DnD too), while, at the very least, giving it skills on about 3.5's Bard level, so that it will not feel like a stabbing machine (refluffing it a bit as a quintessential adventurer, ready to face everything the nature can throw at him). Then provide a wide array of easily accessible transformative Prestige Classes, like Valkyrie, Death Knight or Artifisoldier. So, still no "spells" in the strict sense of the word, but clearly defined sources for overtly supernaturnatural abilities.

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Again I ask: why is it such a bad thing that fighters gain pseudo-magical abilities (AKA Charles Atlas superpowers)?  This way they are still not magic, but superhuman.
     Two reasons:

1)"Physical enhancement" is far thematically narrower than "rewriting reality", even if you give the fighter enough of the former to bring level-appropriate amounts of pain in combat. In fact, the main problem with warrior classes, notably, is not their (in)ability to deal damage, it is their inflexibility. Sure, it is possible to spin quite flexible and diverse arrays of superpowers out of physical enhancement, but this requires noticeably greater imagination and talent. Even in the settings where doing enough push-ups makes you clearly superhuman, most characters without explicit magic still have their powers boiling down to "punching stuff harder". That's before we remember the knee-jerk reaction many people have against supposedly non-magical powers that completely break the boundary of plausibility. It is better to just say outright "it is magic" than to deal with people whose suspension of disbelief can deal with a spell of Blindsight 60' Radius, but not with getting 60'-blindsight by turning your voice into echolocator or hairs into invisible, intangible feelers. No, I don't know why this is so, but I've encountered such people.

2)DnD long since evolved past the point where the concept of "fighter" was beneficial. In fact, fighters faced this threat ever since other warrior-type classes started to appear. But it really hit them in 3.0, which codified the assumption that every class should be able to pull a level-appropriate weight in combat. If everyone is supposed to be competent enough at fighting - while also doing something else - a class who can only fight gets stuck in a very unenviable niche, where whatever you try to do with it hurts the game either for that class (because everyone else can do fighter's work+something else), or for everyone else (because you're forced to gimp combat ability of other classes to the point where having fighters in party is mandatory). While it is possible to redefine fighter in a way that makes it a team player again, do you feel like going against all the thought inertia?


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Ummm... no. This thread has gone to great lengths to establish the strenghts and weaknesses of early firearms. Being flat-out better was not one of them. In fact, Crossbows were probably better for a long time - more accurate, greater effective range, same or similar penetration.
     The thing is... Firearms started displacing crossbows and relegating them to hunting weapons very quickly precisely because of better penetration/stopping effect. By the end of the first quarter of 16th century, as evidenced by the Battle of Pavia and others, arquebusiers already largely displaced non-firearms missile troops in the best European armies. In Japan - where armor was both less common amond soldiers and usually inferior in quality, compared to European standards, arquebuse displaced bow as the main missile weapon and changed actual infantry tactics within less than 35 years after their introduction by Eupopean traders. 

I disagree here, too. With those superheroes running about it's quite simple to make a firearm that's not portable by a regular human, but quite portable for a superhuman hero.
     Yes, but where is the impetus for doing so? Very early firearms still are unvieldy and unreliable, when the main deciding factor of battles is the difference in superhuman abilties, their advantages are harder to see. In addition, if the arsenal of magic weapons is replenished very slowly (which is true for pre 3.X DnD editions), you'll have the cirle of "magic bows are relatively common because heroes of the past were bowmen -> heroes of the present aim to become bowmen because magic bows are relatively common".

    While this will not totally (or even necessarily) arrest the development of firearms, it quite possibly might do so, providing a suitable explanation for their relatively limited use. Particularly in combination with common explanations for DnD's medieval stasis in general, such as regularity of civilzation-destroying catastrophes and wars, or the best minds being devoted to the study of magic.


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The main problem with fighters in DnD is not that Magic > You (although it is, almost without fail throughout all of the editions). It is High-End Monsters > You. There is just no way you can fight a middle-aged dragon or a purple worm and come on top without the plot coddling you, unless your fighting abilities are so incredible, that they are magic in all but name, or you are decked in magic items to the point where they contribute most of your fighting abilitiy. Even much tamer and lower-level monsters are an almost impossible challenge with mere human level of ability. Saw that trolls in LotR movies? These are maybe hill giant equivalents. If you actually have enough mojo to beat them fair and square, why pretend that you still are a nonmagical class? Just so you can be a boring one-trick pony?

Magic and  Monsters > You is also usually true for fantasy in general. Generally, the action hero main character works at a tremendous disadvantage  when confronted with them, just in books, and movies, and whatever, the main character actually IS coddled by the plot, so he invariably gets into that very small window of probability, that allow them to succeed. But this model does not work in tabletop. If probability says that you are likely to lose... you will likely lose. Particularly in the game where a large percentage of opponents is usually intent of flat-out murdering you, rather than intimidating, manipulating or otherwise giving you a chance to outwit them.

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     There are 2 points to consider about firearms.

    1)In the real world firearms past the earliest stages of development were pretty much superior to any muscle-powered weapon by a large margin. Their effective range and penetrating power exceeded that of the best bows by several times, which easily trumped bow's nominal superiority in the rate of fire. Even in environments where no one wore armor, bows were swiftly relegated to weapons of hunting, stealth attacks and last chance after running out of gunpowder, after introduction of firearms.

    2)DnD is not the real world. Muscle-powered weapons are many times more effective, because people who decided most conflicts have muscles that are many times superior to anything seen in our reality. Monsters that can only be killed by these super-powerful heroes are abound. A stone giant or a middle-aged dragon have natural protection that is easily superior to any personal armor ever crafted on Earth. And may wear actual armor or magical forcefields on top on that. In this environment people (those with intelligence and resources to develop new weapons) likely will find very hard to care about firearms, leading to very stunted development.

    3)To reflect this, personally I feel that giving early firearms good initial damage, like 2d6 18-20/X2 for arquebuses and pistols, 2d10 17-20/X2 for large muskets, but keeping the reload time to a move action and one round respectively is about right. This will make them quite superior as far as low-level grunts are concerned, even an attractive option for a PC's sidearm, but once you start becoming superhero, you better pick a bow, because reload times make them incompatible with just about anything that makes archery worthwhile.

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