Min/Max Boards

Quote from: TSS on April 30, 2012, 07:04:38 PM

If you want to argue instead Protection is useless, fine. 4/22 = about 20%. Yet that doesn't mean domain devotion feats suck even though most of them do.

This coming from someone who has stated in the past that AC is useless. It's a +7 bonus. While significantly higher than other AC bonuses, it's still an AC bonus.

It was brought to my attention it has a few uses for stacking in certain parties. Either way, there's still only a few useful devotions.

Patently incorrect. CC was errata'ed, and Trickery Devotion no longer duplicates gear.

Look at what I said, then look at what you said. See the problem yet?

Yes, but the argument was put forth, 'why bother getting 9th level spells at all?' As in, why try so hard to get to CL 17th? Maybe the belief that you should NEVER take a class that costs you a Caster level is wrong. My reasoning? 9th level spells ain't worth the effort.

You lose more than just 9th level spells. You also get all other spells much more slowly.

A CC Dip gives all of the following:

0.5 BAB if using fractional BAB.
2 Fort and Will, possibly more if using fractional saves.
Knowledge domain, which you trade for Knowledge Devotion.
Two other domains of your choice you can either keep or trade for devotions.
Cleric spellcasting, assuming 11+ Wis. Sure it's just a few castings of Sign, but that's still useful.
Wand use.
A Turn Undead pool.

Now let's see... Knowledge requires no turns. The others are 1/day, and then 3 turns to recharge so making them 4/day is 9 turns. Oh look, you can buy two cheap items and get 6 turns! That means all you need is a Cha of 10, even temporarily, and you can keep this up all day!

Oh look, some versions of Trickery duplicate gear! If you're claiming that's not useful you're an idiot.

Meanwhile a level of Warblade, unless done at very high levels gets you... some low level maneuvers, the most useful of which easily comes from a 3k item, and you don't have the Concentration to support it anyways!

The CC dip is better than almost any dip in the game except maybe a Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy dip, which you should also have.

The Warblade dip can do decent stuff but I doubt you actually know what that is what with your claiming that gear duplication is useless, and it still doesn't compare to the sheer volume of stuff you get from a CC dip.

I also completely forgot about Travel Devotion, which while outclassed by Lion Totem Barb has some use. Mentioning that would be a more effective attack.

This whole argument is stupid.

Most of the things in group x are useless, therefore all are?

That's not specific to 9th level spells or even spells. Every group in the game is like that.

Domain Devotion feats. There's one for every core domain, 22 in total.

How many are worth using?

Animal, Knowledge, Law, Protection, Trickery (depending on version).

The rest? Meh.

That doesn't mean domain devotion feats are bad. It means when you're talking about domain devotion feats you're talking about that 20-25% of them that is worth taking.

1st level spells? 9th level spells? Feats? Classes? Same difference.

Mooncrow, you clearly understand nothing. Nothing about me, nothing about optimized games, and nothing about how combat goes in such a game. Unless I'm confusing you for someone else you were one of the ones bewildered by basic measures.

And the few people that could explain it to those here have already written those people off as lost causes.

High op is a fallacy. The games that would fit that description if that term were legitimate feature encounters that are anything but a formality. If any generalization can be applied to them, it's that encounters will fucking kill you if you're not very well prepared for them. That is anything but regarding them as trivial.

You talk like someone that has never played in the sort of games you are describing.

I am talking as someone who has seen such first and second hand.

Usually, what happened now was he would hold the DRAMATIC POSE for several moments so as to draw in HEROES to bring BLACK DEATH MAN to justice. But none would come, and eventually it would register to his addled, disconnected mind that there were none here and he'd walk away dejected.

This time though, a ROLLING ROCK MAN approached him.

"Wine? This is no time for drunken antics, Black Death Man is running amok!" he yells, about thirty decibels louder than necessary. As he leans forward to glower at the poster again a mug hurled past the space where his head was a second ago, some of the drink splattering onto him as it flew past and clattered against the far well. Thomas looks up at the roof. "Look, the rain foreshadows another dark day. The good innkeeper cannot repair his roof with this miscreant about!"

Thomas blinked several times. There was something more important than carpentry work... Of course!

"Are you seeking Black Death Man as well? Then we must FORSOOTH!"

He did seem to be calming down... slowly, his voice dropping to a more normal volume.

The mountain man that had been inspecting the poster noticed the crazy man babbling about it and shot him a pitiful look, which he didn't seem to notice. He began yelling again, and one of the other patrons worked themselves out of their melancholic state long enough to hurl their drink at him in protest, but by some bizarre coincidence... or perhaps that he wasn't as unaware as he let on he moved at just the right moment to let it fly by. Then again, he did honestly seem to believe that the feeling of wetness came from a leaking roof rather than the errant projectile... Though his lovingly assigned moniker of Thomas the Touched seemed fitting, he did seem to mean well...

Another post where you demand proofs while ignoring them.

It's very clear how Gather Information works. You can't learn things people don't know. Since the Solar can easily keep those details a secret you don't know them. At least not via skills. Divinations would reveal the actual information very easily, but you can't get those.

This is one of the many reasons all good players mock skills.

Same for all the other examples. It's clear how the rules work, he's just ignoring them because they don't support his argument. It's also very obvious this has stopped being about the Rogue a long time ago.

The difference is that the Barbarian does enough damage to win that race. Though neither will do it in one attack. It has enough HP to take a weak full attack so the Rogue's not killing it even in the best case scenario.

And that's assuming the dragon doesn't have one of those gems that costs 35k and gives the dragon immunity. It's also assuming virtually guaranteed means not very likely at all, as even with the spell that says nothing at all about the Rogue it only prevents the dragon's normal senses from detecting it. Not magical senses, not any sort of lair wards, and not any sort of non dragons about.

Even the initiative is not that assured. The Rogue only has +11, which is low. The dragon can tie that without trying at all and beat it easily if it does try.

Which breaks upon attack and says absolutely nothing about the Rogue.

Quote from: TSS on April 17, 2012, 02:52:17 PM

The goal was to prove that the Rogue could take on level appropriate enemies. Snakeman selected the Solar as a specific opponent but building specifically to beat a Solar is out of line for reasons that should be obvious.

Solars are CR 23. The rogue is level 20. How exactly does this counts as "level-appropriate" again?

Because sometimes you fight things 1-4 levels higher than yourself or more.

Because the same person that made the Rogue selected the Solar as the Rogue's opponent.

He claimed this was because the Solar had the best Spot modifier but that isn't true. All of the CR 20 dragons would have a mid 30s modifier from 30ish HD + Wis alone and also take half normal distance penalties. We went for the Solar anyways.