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Messages - Tubercular Ox

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1
You Break it You Buy it / Parlor trick: Malconvoker at second level.
« on: January 13, 2014, 12:49:15 PM »
I've almost certainly missed a rule, but this makes me laugh so hard I wanted to share.  It depends on two blinkered rulings, though.

Take a Cloistered Cleric 1.  Your domains are Summoner (+2 CL to conjuration(summoning)) and either Trickery, Dragon, or Envy (Bluff as a class skill).  You also have enough skill points for Know (Planes) 4, Bluff 4, and buying celestial and infernal straight up.  Your other choice is regular cleric and some extra Int.

You are a human with two flaws and one trait.  First level feats are Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Extend Spell, and Sanctum Spell.  Your trait is Spellgifted (+1 CL to one school, -1 CL to other schools.  Pick Conjuration.)

Gain depravity (Heroes of Horror).  At moderate depravity, take Eldritch Corruption as your bonus feat.  At severe depravity, take Extra Slot. 

Blinkered ruling one:  Level 1 + 2 (Summoner Domain) + 1 (Spellgifted) gives you the 4 caster levels to qualify for Extra Slot.

Blinkered ruling two:  Level 1 spell + Sanctum Spell + Eldritch Corruption is a 4th level spell so Extra Slot grants a 3rd level slot.

You can now cast summon monster straight up.

Has this been done?  It's hard to know what to search on.

2
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 14, 2012, 08:38:38 PM »
Quote from: TSS on April 14, 2012, 08:34:09 PM
You also completely ignored the rest of that post.

Well, I have a lot of ignoring to catch up on if I'm going to keep up with you.

3
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: Why are the exact problems people have with Pathfinder?
« on: April 14, 2012, 08:33:00 PM »
So, ah, should I take this to mean you guys won't be participating in 5th?  Cuz I'll admit when I first heard about it a part of me hoped you guys would be there.

Yes, derailing the thread, but it seems like being able to target the question at people who've already proven willing to talk about pathfinder is more useful than broadcasting it to the whole board.

4
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 14, 2012, 08:30:03 PM »
Quote from: TSS on April 14, 2012, 08:02:32 PM
Take 20 takes 2 minutes. He's detected and killed before that.

How?

5
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 14, 2012, 07:43:22 PM »
Quote from: TSS on April 14, 2012, 06:55:30 PM
I haven't said anything about those one way or the other. Only that it would be unaware it is up against a Solar and unaware of the location of the thing he thinks he's up against.

If there are avorals, the kobold can see them popping in and out, and knows something is up.  It will find the Solar by taking 20 on listen checks.  The Solar doesn't have enough Move Silently to keep up.

If there are no avorals, the shrine is mysteriously unguarded.  The kobold takes 20 on spot and listen checks because it's played D&D before.  Hence, finding the solar. 

Quote from: Ziegander on April 14, 2012, 06:59:11 PM
A Solar casts spells as a 20th level Cleric. If he's guarding a secret shrine, then he's not playing around with the "typical spells prepared," he's making sure he's got his bases covered. This is all pretty basic use of his resources.

Certainly, and it's already agreed that a Solar making full use of his resources could pound the rogue into the dirt.  The question is, can a stock solar do it?  So far the answer is no, since, despite TSS' assertion, the Solar does in fact die in a full attack.  The math was done a while ago.

6
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 14, 2012, 06:39:40 PM »
Quote from: TSS on April 14, 2012, 06:26:36 PM
The kobold goes to the shrine and looks for a small or medium humanoid. It doesn't see one, being as it is invisible, and wouldn't kill it in one full attack if it were visible. The Solar, if it desires can mess with the kobold with decoys and illusions if it desired, but we'll say it doesn't. The instant the kobold does anything to give itself away it dies.

So you're committing to there being no avorals or other bodyguards for the solar?  He's just sitting on his hands again?

7
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 14, 2012, 06:25:10 PM »
Also, it assumes it doesn't go surprise round - paste - kobold wins initiative - first round - full attack - solar dies.

Although I still think the kobold should give up on the idea of having to kill 10 tarrasques in a row and just sell one of the miracle scrolls for a wand of see invisibility and some +str gear.  Or whatever.

8
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 14, 2012, 06:01:43 PM »
Quote from: Kethrian on April 14, 2012, 05:59:38 PM
The splatter would still travel in a pattern away from the direction it is thrown, thereby leaving an indicator to where it came from.

If only the kobold were a master of stealth, far superior to any of us, he might be able to work out a way to throw the flask and remain hidden that we might never think of ourselves.  It may involve using cleverly the many magical and mundane aids he's prepared himself with that make hiding easier.

9
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: Magic Missile: What can you do with it?
« on: April 14, 2012, 05:58:49 PM »
After playing more than a few British vs. Zulu war games, the wounding option sounds useful to me for a villain.  Kill a civilian, and you've pissed the heroes off.  Wound a civilian, and one of them has to stop a round to stabilize the sap.  Wound five civilians and you might have paralyzed the entire party for a turn.

10
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 14, 2012, 05:54:47 PM »
Quote from: ImperatorK on April 14, 2012, 05:51:44 PM
Splash weapons can be thrown at the ground next to the enemy. The kobold throws the paste at the opposite side than he is, making the enemy look for him where he isn't.

And that sounds like someone making a very high hide check.

11
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 14, 2012, 05:50:13 PM »
Quote from: Kethrian on April 14, 2012, 05:47:09 PM
Not at all.  I'm saying that the Solar knows after the attack has been made.  He's been hit already, and is using his senses of touch (where he got hit), hearing (which direction the bag burst from when it hit) and sight (the general direction of the splatter) to determine the angle of attack.

That sounds an awful lot like a -20 penalty to hide.

12
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 14, 2012, 05:34:51 PM »
Quote from: ImperatorK on April 14, 2012, 04:54:54 PM
Question: Does the kobold know what kind of guardian he's going to encounter? I think he should, because gathering info before you do something major like this is reasonable for a Rogue, especially the sneaky type.
In other words it's not unreasonable for the kobold to know the Solars strengths and weaknesses and prepare accordingly, just like the Solar can prepare for an intruder.

I'd prefer that the kobold remain generally viable.  So while bringing specifically a scroll of forbiddance to off the avorals (Is the solar still doing that?) seems against the spirit of the thing, swapping some of those miracle scrolls for, say, a more reliable way to see invisibility, and/or strength items to survive waves of exhaustion is reasonable, as invisibility and the kobold's low strength score are a rather general threat.

Quote from: TSS on April 14, 2012, 05:24:56 PM
The Rogue moves the goalposts and then takes 10 for a total of 35. He now definitely knows there is a small or medium humanoid of [race] guarding the shrine,

The kobold is Neutral.  It decides not to take chances, full attacks the small or medium humanoid from hiding.  The small or medium humanoid, being a solar, dies in the first round.

13
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 14, 2012, 04:49:55 PM »
Quote from: Kethrian on April 14, 2012, 04:19:43 PM
Why not ask how much you have to nerf a titan before a lv 20 monk can win?  Or Balor vs fighter?

I'm actually very interested in questions like this.  However, I have to try and ride whatever wave of energy is cruising through the board at the moment.

I had fun, I learned a lot, thank you to everyone for participating, but the thread really is starting to lose focus again.
Quote from: Kethrian on April 14, 2012, 04:37:44 PM
Really?  Stripping a Solar of all its spells and spell-like abilities, and putting it into an unfavourable position for the encounter is optimizing it?

Case in point, while that was my original proposition, yes, within three posts it was changed to "stock solar."  Stock powers, stock spells, stock equipment.  The encounter itself was chosen as being slightly better than the infinite featureless plain.  No one at the time thought it was an unfavorable position for the solar.  In fact, we even gave the solar the benefit of being "Guarding," and hence going through a boring 20 round guard routine, every 20 rounds, 24/7.  Thankfully, being an avatar of good and holiness probably gives one infinite patience.

Quote from: Kethrian on April 14, 2012, 04:47:48 PM
In that case, a single Waves of Exhaustion is enough to render the kobold helpless.  A coup de grace is all that's needed afterward.

The kobold is hidden.  It is hidden mundanely, hence not visible to true seeing.  It can full attack the solar from hiding and kill it in one round.  The solar does not get a chance to cast waves of exhaustion.

14
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 14, 2012, 09:10:19 AM »
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 14, 2012, 08:34:33 AM
I'm not exactly sure why the OP took away all his spells, I would have just left him with whatever the list was in the Monster Manual, but whatever.

In the original thread (now locked), snakeman proposed a rogue to stomp a stock solar.  The opposition evolved into two points of view:  That a Cleric 20 fait accompli defeats a Rogue 20, and that a stock solar isn't a reasonable representation of an in-game solar.  So I created the gimped set up and asked how much needed to be added, ie, how many cleric levels, and/or how much wealth, to make this fight impossible.

Halinn proposed that the solar be restricted to its MM listed items and spell list, and here we are.

I have to admit this far into the argument, it looks like all he really needs to make a mess of things is Summon Monster at will, although I still think with the right strategy the kobold could just power through the solar with a surprise full attack and mock the summons as they slowly vanish.  It may require using and/or selling some of the 10 miracle scrolls the kobold has, but you could probably replace them with generally useful items (and not ones specific to this challenge).  One commenter in the previous thread said this build has very few sneak attack dice compared to what's possible with even minor optimization.  Fixing that makes powering through the solar a lot more possible.

Quote from: Kethrian on April 13, 2012, 11:54:46 PM
Oh, how about the Solar just makes the shrine completely inaccessible to mundane travel? 

That would be changing the scenario, which defeats the point of the demonstration, which was that a properly built sneak attack build is an asset to a low-op party at high levels.  The kobold is actually built to be a general threat, you'll notice that it has a variety of items for getting its sneak attack off on normally immune creatures: truedeath, demolition, vinestrike, etc.

So of course, the follow up question is, how would an ubercharger handle the same scenario?  Invisible solar, patrolling guards, etc.  I'm not sure what build I could propose that would be at a similar level of optimization to the kobold.

(Oh, if you don't mind reading a locked flame war, the original thread.  Please, I beg you, before continuing that argument, re-read the OP, I tried hard to divert this into something constructive.)

15
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« on: April 13, 2012, 07:33:47 PM »
Quote from: Nytemare3701 on April 13, 2012, 04:46:08 PM
Did...did WoTC write something that's legitimately self-correcting?  :twitch

Seeing as it went unnoticed for years, I'm sure it was an accident.

16
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 13, 2012, 07:24:23 PM »
Quote from: Tonymitsu on April 13, 2012, 12:45:28 PM
The first problem I have is that he loses his Hide in Plain Sight ability if he enters an area of bright light, or an area affected by Daylight, which is on the Solar's stock list of spells.

This only prevents him from hiding again after the Solar has spotted him the first time.  As the solar can't effectively spot him ever, HiPS never really comes into play.  Furthermore, wasting a round to cast Daylight gives the kobold another full attack on the thing to down it, if by some miracle it survived the first.  Please do that.

Quote from: Tonymitsu on April 13, 2012, 12:45:28 PM
Making ranged attacks while hiding is covered under the Sniping skill.  The skill is worded such that you are permitted a single ranged attack, and then allowed a move action (and a -20 penalty) to remain hidden from your target. 

There's a bug in the code here.  The penalty for hiding "while attacking" is the same as the penalty for sniping, -20.  And there's no action required to hide, it happens at the same time as other movement, which presumably includes the 5' step he gets after a full attack.

In short, the sniping rule does not work as intended.  If you want to argue that it does, the kobold can still down the solar in a single full attack, after which it only has to outlast the avorals and mephits.  It can selectively kill the ones that are going to poof out last, while the ones that poof out first... poof out.  Alternatively, he weathers one round of attacks (definitely possible, their stats aren't inspiring), shadow steps, hides, and waits for them all to poof out.

The avorals have no way of healing the solar, as the solar is invisible.  They have see invisibility on their ability list, but cannot cast it without orders.  They can activate true seeing as a full round action, and maintain it with concentration, but not without orders.  They can ready an action to heal the solar, but not without orders.  By the time the solar can give orders, it is too late, unless we return to the situation where the solar issues standing orders to his summoned creatures every few rounds, which the kobold can definitely overhear.  And while I tried to avoid leaning on this rule, orders that presume the most dangerous threat to the shrine is a rogue that can bypass true seeing probably represent a lack of imagination on the solar's part.  Quite frankly, that alone should eliminate the mephits from play. 

Quote from: RetroGamer24 on April 13, 2012, 05:42:52 PM
Solar heard the alarm so is actively listening and looking. 

The alarm is on the shrine.  This all happens while the kobold is outside the shrine.  The kobold maintains surprise.

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D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 13, 2012, 12:10:41 PM »
The kobold can fly.  And if so far I've understood the set up, it can still hide, amusingly enough.

18
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 13, 2012, 01:31:39 AM »
Every time the solar summons mephits, it has to give them orders to glitterdust the area if anything suspicious happens.  Possibly including special orders for a specific attack pattern.  Same goes for telling the Avorals that they are to heal it when injured.  Otherwise, they attack the enemy to the best of their ability, per the spell description. 

Does the solar have telepathy?  I missed the glaringly obvious summon monster at will, so even though I can't see it, I'm nervous.  If not, the kobold has a general idea where the solar is after the first summon in the guard routine.  It can also observe the full guard routine and know exactly when the monsters are going to poof out, *and* their exact strategy, since it's been dictated to them by the solar.  Otherwise, their strategy is "attack the monster you can't see."  So it knows the solar's orders for how the mephits are to glitterdust the area, and can stand where they aren't.  If this means standing outside a 30' range of all of them, it can still off a mephit with its regular damage, and try not to giggle as the whole crew goes nuts.

Also, if the solar does manage to hit the kobold with waves of exhaustion or other spell, its invisibility will drop, and it is a standard action to restore.  And while leaving and coming back with a forbiddance scroll is rather specific to the challenge, adding a +strength item is both a reasonable and affordable precaution for both this and other, unspecified encounters, especially since encumbrance is a known risk for low strength characters.

In short, even if we add the requirement that the kobold cannot leave and come back, he is nowhere near dead in the water yet.

19
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 12, 2012, 08:49:50 PM »
Quote from: Kajhera on April 12, 2012, 08:34:25 PM
It's more likely avorals are visible, summoned to deal with whatever else is aggressing the shrine. (Or be intimidating, as mentioned. Armies of angels can be that way.)

Adding avorals would mean admitting that the kobold wins against a stock solar.  The solar has summon monster spells, but they have a 20 round duration, and the scenario gives the kobold the advantage of surprise.  If the kobold pastes the solar and it wastes its one chance to fight back on a summon monster spell, the kobold wins.  If the solar summons monsters at any other time, the kobold can wait them out.

Quote from: RetroGamer24 on April 12, 2012, 08:46:53 PM
Before I get an answer to a question I posed someone I have this to add.  Since the Solar isn't dumb there probably is a daylight cast about the room.  Probably in a few places.  Kobolds have light senativity.  Yeah they are just dazzled but is it worth mentioning.  I also don't think shadowy kobold would enter a room blanketed in daylight.

Also since there is time to prepare the Solar would have entropic shield on itself.

Entropic shield, duration 1 min/lvl.
Daylight, duration 10 min/lvl.
Both are only on its spell list once.  The kobold can wait them out, if it's unlucky enough to arrive when they're up.

Also, the kobold has sundark goggles, and daylight does not actually hinder its hiding abilities, it's just a nifty "Hey why not?" that snakeman added on.

Quote from: RetroGamer24 on April 12, 2012, 08:17:49 PM
BTW since kolbold has a non evil epic dagger it won't damage the Solar.  Before I get flamed by the likes of snake, dman, and others.  I don't have the books with me so I don't remember what feycraft fully does.  I do remember it grants weapon finesse (sp?) but I don't remember what else.  I highly doubt though it allows a full by pass to DR epic & evil or the Regeneration of Epic & Evil.  ty

DR does not by itself prevent precision damage.  A single sneak attack will power through his DR handily.  And at some point, the kobold switches to his force crossbow, which ignores DR.

For me so far the only question is what the solar does after it's pasted and whether this actually stops the kobold, since being visible is a guaranteed lose for it.

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D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« on: April 12, 2012, 08:05:12 PM »
Let's grant the solar his invisibility.  I forgot that this was already addressed:

The kobold approaches the shrine using Hide and Move Silently, takes 20 on Spot and Listen checks, which will let it detect the solar enough to torchbug paste the thing.  It is not attacking, so the -20 penalty to hide that its previous calculations were based on isn't there, meaning the Solar is even less likely to detect the kobold before the kobold detects it.

Score:  Solar, however many rounds until he's spotted (listened?).  Kobold, 0 rounds.

Which is better?  Knowing the kobold exists but being pasted, or the kobold getting first strike on the solar?

And not taking 20 on spot and listen checks before approaching the shrine isn't really reasonable on the kobold's part.  In fact, he should probably do it even if the solar is visible.

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