Min/Max Boards

This handbook has been a lifesaver for me. Currently running a Witch from 1st to 9th-level in a really fast-paced campaign.

There's an archetype I think deserves mention, that I didn't currently see in the handbook. From the PFS Field Guide - the Dimensional Occultist.

You give up three hexes, which ordinarily would be a pretty bad deal, but two of the three abilities you get seem pretty nice to me - CoP made even easier, and the ability to teleport/plane shift to a designated sanctum without error for easy escape. The augment ability is pretty mediocre even for its intended effect, which seems to be pre-buffing or warding. But what really drew me to this archetype was its new patron, Dimensions - which adds some really awesome spells to the Witch list. You get Rope Trick, Blink, the whole Planar Binding line... even Gate!

Given the dearth of decent Patrons out there for Witches, I thought this might be worth a mention in the guide.

DM updated the 2007 Paladin handbook linked above - can we replace it with this one? http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html

Quote from: Hallack on December 08, 2011, 09:02:01 AM

@Prime:  Thanks for the heads up.  I had glanced but didn't notice any.

There's a "Pathfinder" section in Base Classes.

So far though, it only has the Pathfinder-specific base classes (e.g. Magus, Oracle) rather than any guides for the Pathfinder versions of 3.5 classes, like a PF Paladin handbook. So I support this guide.

Quote

Seems to me that the trend so far is generally 3.5 or Pathfinder and not usually using both.

More that they're analysed separately.

This I agree with; for a 3.P game it will vary too much based on what material the DM allows to mix or which rules/wordings take precedence over which, so better to write handbooks that treat the systems separately and anyone playing 3.P can simply open them both side-by-side to make their selections.

While you could call in high-HD creatures that are weak for their CRs, you won't have an essentia pool worth noting when you actually have to kill them, making you rely too heavily on existing Necrocarnum Zombies and on your party, forcing them to waste resources to help you fulfill your class requirements. I do not advocate using Necrocarnate unless the DM explicitly tells you that boiling anthills for essentia is fine.

I understand, but I'll accept even a subpar solution if it doesn't depend on the DM's graces. Preferably something that would work for a super-good Vivicarnate too, though that would be even harder to justify (i.e. a good character coming up with a fresh corpse every morning  )

And if I can switch gears to the Mind's Eye melds... how do you feel about these? Some seem really good. For instance, Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces) and your Arms chakra gives you no less than five feats for the price of one (Cleave, Mobility, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush and Improved Natural Attack.) You indicated that it was better than the Wind Cloak too, though that was the only mention made of it in the guide. Psion's Eyes lets you make Autohypnosis checks untrained and Mindlink at will. Charming Veil lets you read thoughts at will.  Would they be worthy of a rating?

Quote from: Psyren on December 15, 2011, 03:12:46 PM

Apologies if there are meant to be more posts to this guide (I will delete this if so, or a mod can) but I had a request; there are Incarnate soulmelds in other sources (e.g. Dragon Magic and Mind's Eye; were there any more?) that weren't rated in this handbook. Can these be added?

Off the top of my head, I don't see Dragon Tail or Elder Spirit here.

I did not include the Dragon Magazine ones on purpose, as Dragon Magazine is notorious for it's shoddy sense of system balance. I realize that Incarnum doesn't have a lot of love, but I have rarely included Dragon content in one of my handbooks (the exception being the Death Master handbook I wrote years ago). The Dragon Magic ones, however, are generally weak (and the Dragon Tail is a Totemist soulmeld).

And I just haven't bothered making a Discussion thread.

Are you sure Tail is Totemist only? It says "Incarnate, Totemist" here.

Were there soulmelds in Dragon Mag? (-azine, not -agic.) I didn't even know that, and balance or not I'd love to see them. The Dragon Magazine Binder vestiges were interesting after all.

isn't the argument stemming from the fact that the ability to manifest powers was described as an SLA? if one distinguishes between the ability to manifest powers and the effect (the powers themselves), i can see it go either way. if one does rule different in that case, i'm not sure what effect, if any, the feats would have then. i don't have much of an opinion on this argument.

I'm not arguing that powers aren't PLAs. That is definitely RAW. The trouble is that psionics-magic transparency does not, and never has, applied to feats.

The quote:

Psionics-Magic Transparency
Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

Feats are not covered by the rule. Thus, feats that affect magic (such as metamagic) and feats that affect psionics are always treated separately.

Furthermore, while PLAs are similar to SLAs, they are explicitly treated separately in the rules. SRD again:

In addition to existing spell-like and supernatural abilities, creatures can also have psi-like abilities. (Psionic creatures may also have extraordinary and natural abilities.)

Which finally leads us to the basis for the entire "trick" - Quicken SLA and Empower SLA. Here is that quote:

Psi-Like Abilities And Feats
Creatures with access to psi-like abilities can use the feats Empower Spell-Like Ability and Quicken Spell-Like Ability.

These are two very specific exceptions to the general rule. It does not write us a blank check to go hunting for SLA-only feats to apply to psionics; that includes Supernatural Transformation.


I'm sorry if it seems like I'm running this into the ground, but I pointed out this issue to KA in the original thread on GitP when we started this guide and he hasn't got around to removing it from the list yet. I think the trick is cool and all, but if we start allowing houserule tricks in the guide there's no telling how long and unwieldy it could end up. There's more than enough RAW exploits in the psionics rules without resorting to things that simply don't work by any true reading.

If it makes you feel any better, the DSP folks plugged that little hole in Pathfinder.

Also, the "(Su) Psi" trick is not RAW at all and requires a massive leap of logic/DM fiat to work.

Honestly, even without the ACFs and without the special way of getting powers known, Ardents are more than playable. All that other stuff is just icing on the cake.

I'm thinking of updating this handbook. Samb's writing style is a bit... I suppose eager is the most charitable term, but I'm a bigger fan of a more clinical handbook like Saeomon's. "This is good and here's why, this sucks and here's why," etc. He also left out a bunch of great PrCs for them (I think they're the best entry to Subverted Psion hands-down, not to mention obvious stuff like Psychic Theurge) and I'd like more of a focus on how to build a good ardent if all the supplementary stuff that makes the uber is disallowed. (Not all DMs like Mind's Eye.)

The balancing factor for Miracle is that it's supposed to be limited by your deity. In other words, it doesn't cost you XP because even the listed effects can simply be refused, and then you've blown a 9th on nothing.

You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

So for instance, you couldn't Miracle Pelor for a fireball to torch some innocents with (Burning Hate jokes aside.) Or you couldn't Miracle Lathander to Animate Dead unless you had a really good reason.

Wish isn't subject to those rules. If you try and ask for something too powerful you could get screwed, but the listed effects are guaranteed; aligned spells, reanimation spells even if you worship an undead-hating deity, remedy spells even if you worship a deity of disease etc, Wish can do all that. Furthermore, even the supposedly "too powerful" stuff can happen; your DM isn't forced to screw you over if you, say, Wish for two Wishes, even if that is pretty clearly out of bounds.

So that at least is a reason why Miracle is free; depending on what you ask for, you could end up blowing a 9th for nothing. Nature deities especially could say "lolbalance" and deny whatever you were asking for, or just plain give you something completely different.