Min/Max Boards

One of the handbooks or a combination of the handbooks should be comprehensive. There may not be a list putting it all together, so you might need to consult multiple handbooks. But 90% of all tricks you can do with metamagic should be in the handbooks. Just keep looking for handbooks.

Here's a neat trick. Metaphysical spellshaper + Being undead. You are immune to ability score damage to your physical ability scores. Thus you can apply every metamagic feat you have to every spell you ever cast for free.

The justification for that trick is a bit more involved, but the trick works. That should pretty much be all the metamagic reduction you need.

Power, I suggest you chill out. For some reason I think you have taken my suggestion as some sort of personal insult and are now defending yourself and getting more intense as a result. Fair enough; I can understand that. I must respectfully disagree and (hopefully) civilly register my disappointment with you insulting me.

I am not trolling. I am merely suggesting something which will accomplish the original poster's goals, while being fully aware of the original poster's constraints. I have suggested that those constraints could be re-thought, but I didn't push it and I did not state that discussion strongly. Discussing re-thinking constraints is par for the course in character building forums. Being rude or pushy about it is not par for the course, and is not okay. I wasn't rude nor pushy. I merely gave the suggestion.

If Armv doesn't want to play a Cleric or Druid, that's perfectly fine. There's no "right" way to play DnD, and I'm certainly not trying to push my preferred method.

Strangely enough, you seem to have characterized me incorrectly. I'm mostly a power gamer, and I play DnD mostly as a tactical exercise, or figuring out how to optimize characters for the highest power level (in various metrics of power), and I've even invented a couple dirty tricks. This is why I find your protest especially annoying; you seem to have gotten me all wrong and are chastising me for reasons not grounded in actual fact.

I'm just trying to help out by giving my suggestion to someone asking how a certain character building goal might be accomplished (The point of these types of threads).

In any case, considering the original poster hasn't replied to the thread for a week and the reasons I gave for playing a Cleric or Druid have been fully explored, there isn't a point to discussing my suggestion further.

Quote from: Saxony on July 27, 2013, 02:21:02 AM

Thus, the crux of this entire thread, answering the original poster's question of "What can I play to accomplish this goal?" is answered neatly.

Frankly it's all sorts of crass and dubious to keep giving the one answer you've clearly been told is unwanted. Are you trolling, perchance?

Quote from: Saxony on July 27, 2013, 02:21:02 AM

The real reason I'm suggesting playing a Cleric or Druid is because it was a solution I knew would work, and didn't know of any other solutions off the top of my head. I wanted to pitch in, but didn't really want to go to any extraordinary effort and research in an area I wasn't terribly familiar with.

Swell. Well, I hope you gained something from your participation in this thread, because I suspect the rest of us didn't.

... Sigh. I posted twice after my first suggestion. Both times to explain my suggestion, and how it wasn't the cancer killing DnD as a hobby.... not keep suggesting it.

In any case, you seem to have gotten quite upset. I'll repeat my suggestion to chill out. I really am not trolling, not trying to disrespect Armv, and not trying to disrespect you. However I won't roll over because someone thought I was being mean or disrespectful. I did nothing wrong here and I will maintain that stance. On the other hand I do have a strong, combative personality and sometimes that unintentionally comes out when I explain myself so I apologize if something I said seemed confrontational.

If I explicitly insulted you at any time, please point it out so I can formally apologize.

Quote from: Saxony on July 27, 2013, 02:21:02 AM

Thus, the crux of this entire thread, answering the original poster's question of "What can I play to accomplish this goal?" is answered neatly.

Quote from: Armv on July 18, 2013, 02:01:02 AM

Such a build can be accomplished with Druid or Cleric. I don't want to play either.

Just sayin'.

I am aware of that. That's why my post discussed how that sort of problem could be avoided, rather than just being "Just play Druid 20, noob".

Saxony, some folks play the game as a test of skill, so playing badly on purpose can ruin the point of playing. Taking a handicap is fine, but intentionally making bad decisions can even feel like willfully inflicting brain damage on yourself. If you're thinking of a tabletop RP as a group drama/story session and/or the GM indulging your power fantasies, then I guess playing badly is fine. But if you're interested in testing your wits, then playing like this sucks. It can be done. It just isn't fun.

All in all, the GM is new here, so it's not recommended to run characters who can easily destroy a campaign if the GM doesn't know how to deal with them. Besides, why are you recommending taking a top tier class and playing at a lower power level instead of just... picking a class with a lower power level?

I don't see the difference between intentionally picking a weak class and intentionally picking weak spells/wildshape forms. If the original poster wants to avoid cognitive dissonance of "Why doesn't my Cleric cast Miracle, when he can?", he could just let the DM house rule powerful spells away. Maybe his god is limiting his spell choices for whatever reason. It's DnD; we can do that with a myriad of readjustments mechanical and/or story in nature.

As far as being nice to the GM and not using campaign breaking characters, I totally agree with that, and it's what I was suggesting in the first place. The original poster should resist the urge to cast Miracle and I think it'll all work out. Clerics are great re-adjusting their power level in the middle of a campaign because they know all cleric spells. They just prepare weaker spells the next day and the GM is happy. Druids are the same, considering spell selection, and they can also re-adjust their animal companions and wildshape choices.

As far as why I'm suggesting picking a class with high potential and playing it weakly... well, that class choice is a rather simple answer to the original poster's question. The full build is "Play Cleric, and don't cast Miracle. Cast Prayer and Cure Light Wounds instead". Thus, the crux of this entire thread, answering the original poster's question of "What can I play to accomplish this goal?" is answered neatly.

The real reason I'm suggesting playing a Cleric or Druid is because it was a solution I knew would work, and didn't know of any other solutions off the top of my head. I wanted to pitch in, but didn't really want to go to any extraordinary effort and research in an area I wasn't terribly familiar with.

I had a Cleric that had huge rebuking abilities once. All the characters I put effort in have txt files with all or most of the planning involved.

Here's some notes I had saved, copy and pasted. Note that any bonus to turning level boosts rebuking level because they are the same ability (at least as far as that is considered).

So all this combined should work for you. However you need a firm grasp of how rebuking and commanding works to actually make use of all this. So READ THE REBUKING RULES CAREFULLY. The big tricks can be subtle.

....

-turnings/day bonus sources:
nightstick: LibMort (7500gp), +4 turning attempts per day, 7.5kgp
reliquary holy symbol, MiC (1000gp), Up to +3 turning attempts per day, 1kgp

-Control limit bonus sources
rod of undead mastery: LibMort (10,000gp), double the amount of undead you can control via Animate Dead.

-undead effective HD debuff sources
rod of defiance: MiC (13000gp from LibMort) undead effectively have -4HD for turning/rebuking purposes.
lyre of restful dead: LibMort (3000gp), succeed on DC 15 perform string instruments check, undead within 30 feet have -4HD for purposes of turning for 10 rounds.

-Turning level bonus sources.
Divine energy focus (feat), Ghostwalk, +2 effective level. +2 on-top to turning checks and turning damage.
scepter of the netherworld (9000 gp), Libris Mortis, +3 to turning level.
"sacred" shield/armor special ability (+2 enchancement bonus cost- at least 18,000gp for a +3 shield with a +2 ability), +2 to turning level and turning check
phylactery/amulet of undead turning (11000 gp), DMG, +4 to effective turning level
Improved Turning (feat), PHB, +1 effective turning level
ephod of authority (800g), Magic Item Compendium, +1 turning level
flametouched iron holy symbol (750g) Eberron, +1 turning level
Talisman of undead mastery:(3000 gp) MiC, +2 turning level per charge spent, 3 charges/day, +1 turning level per extra charge spent.
rod of authority: (20576gp), Defenders of Faith, +4 cleric level for turning.

Item name, effective turning level increase, gold/level increase ratio
Defiance: +8, 13000 .615
Lyre: +8, 3000 2.666
Scepter:+3, 9000 .333
Sacred: +2, 18000 (+3 cost) .11
Sacred: +2, 18000 (+3 cost).11
Phylactery: +4, 11000 .3636
Ephod: +1, 800 1.25
flamtouched: +1, 750 1.333
Talisman of UM: +2, 3000 .6666
rod of authority: +4, .19

Here's my suggestion to resolve the weakness of monk builds. Play a druid or barbarian and pretend you're using unarmed strikes. I'm not being facetious at all. You can always re-flavor the non-unarmed but viable builds being suggested as being unarmed. That way you have the character image you want (the unarmed fighter) but in a viable or more viable build. Ask your DM to accept the cosmetics change. Maybe throw in a few balancing nerfs, but still ask. Or just pretend in your own head.

So the druid suggestion could perhaps be a warrior who is really channeling their inner animal ferocity (or empty minded zen if you want the monk flavor) to enhance their martial prowess (or enter a zen fighting state). You could even house rule that the druid wildshape doesn't actually change your form, so you really are just a person channeling the power of animals. Of course you'd keep all the numbers the same, so you'd deal 2d8+18 damage of a polar bear bite and have 28 strength, but you'd flavor as "Striking with the ferocity of the polar bear spirit" or something. That build is really just 20 levels of Druid and picking out forms from lists of Druid wildshape forms from the ubiquitous druid guides (multiple on this forum alone).

And the charging barbarian suggestion is even easier. Just pretend you're using unarmed strikes. As Endarire mentions, a greatsword does 2d6 + 1.5 Strength Modifier damage for free at level 1. Monks without large amounts of unarmed damage cheese spend vast amounts of feats+equipment+levels to get what greatswords do for free (zero +- 50 gold  ).. Just ask your DM to treat that damage as an unarmed strike in fluff/flavor terms. Or maybe it's your spiked gauntlets or for more monk flavor "fist wrapping imbued with the essence of the void/mind/zen" that does 2d6 damage and is two-handed.

Any maneuver without an attack will work with a ranged attacking character, but almost all maneuvers that involve attacking do not work with ranged attacks.

I know there are a few, but it will be tough.

I'd suggest not combining soulbow and any official martial adept. Martial adepts just are not ranged characters.

Please let this thread die.

Thank kitep. I'll make sure to add that in.

I'm from the old BG boards. Glad to see everything back.