Author Topic: Advice on a long-term cleric build  (Read 3477 times)

Offline Sevash

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Advice on a long-term cleric build
« on: June 18, 2013, 01:20:01 AM »
Howdy, everyone--long time, no post.  I generally am much happier lurking than posting(I like to watch), but it's been so long since I've played 3.5 that now, at the advent of a new campaign, I have found myself struck with indecision.  It would seem that my op-fu is weak, so I must defer to the masters.

We're starting at level one and going on up to early epic levels, if everything goes right--and since the players are two sets of husband and wife and the DM is a very close friend, we're likely to stick with it for the long haul.  No word yet on character creation rules, but our group tends to favor well above-average ability scores that won't be an issue.  There's also not a high likelihood that any given material will be banned, provided that it's not third-party (Dungeon/Dragon mag is fine):  when the DM was first appraised of what wizards could do with the genesis spell, her reaction was "Hot."  So long as I'm less That Guy and more This Guy, I have her trust.

I've always been a fan of the Cleric/Inquisitor/Prestige Paladin/Ordained Champion/Bone Knight combination, in some form or fashion.  However, one thing I know for sure is that this campaign is going to have lots of undead as enemies--so I don't know for sure how well Bone Knight will stack up given that A.) I may be mistaken for "the enemy" by overzealous NPCs, B.) harnessing undead minions for myself will be difficult given the competition for resources, and C.) a handful of the Bone Knight's class features won't do much against our most common adversaries.  I thought that Knight of the Raven from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft would be a more-than-reasonable substitution, given the circumstances.  Still full BAB and 9/10 spellcasting, with a whole mess of anti-undead class features and a pretty cool pet bird.  I'm still waffling on the issue, though.

Part of my indecision comes from what to do with Ordained Champion and Prestige Paladin should I decide to go with Knight of the Raven.  Master of Radiance has some delightful synergy with KotR, especially when it comes to shooting Splendiferous Lasers(TM).  Reserves of Strength could have some delightful application here, given just how high my CL could be for spells with the light descriptor and how they have added effect against the plentiful undead.  Also, I'll have pretty close to full turning capacity, which I'll likely swap for Destroy Undead.  And since I'm only down two caster levels as opposed to the original build's three, I could potentially grab a second level of Prestige Paladin and Serenity if I felt so inclined.  But on the other hand, by dropping Ordained Champion in addition to Bone Knight I've lost quite a bit of my raw capacity to crush my enemies and see them driven before me.

So, it's at this point I turn to you guys.  I know what I'm gaining and losing with each idea for a build, but I'm unsure how potent those things are when weighted against each other.  I also am not sure how legitimate my fears about Bone Knight against lots of undead will seem in actual play.  Between each of the three builds--Ordained Champion/Bone Knight, Ordained Champion/Knight of the Raven, and Master of Radiance/Knight of the Raven--which would you favor in this environment, and why?

Added bonus question:  Cloistered Cleric, or not?  The extra skill points will definitely help to qualify for the various prestige classes (not to mention the Knowledge domain means I have Knowledge (nature) as a class skill for Master of Radiance), and the net loss of a BAB point shouldn't be a tremendous issue (we'll be working with fractional BAB and saves).  But I'd be out a few hit points and wouldn't have any decent weapons or armor until later, should I decide I want them (Monk's Belt and Bracers of Armor or something similar is a definite option).  I'm favoring Cloistered, but would like your opinions on this as well.

I apologize for throwing so much at you, and would like to thank you for wading through it should you choose to toss me your 2 cp.

Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Advice on a long-term cleric build
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2013, 09:53:59 AM »
Ruby Knight Vindicator is a great gish class too.

Will you be taking Divine Metamagic[Persistent Spell] ?

Offline Janthkin

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Re: Advice on a long-term cleric build
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2013, 06:53:40 PM »
It's a busy build already, but could you slip in a level of Radiant Servant of (some appropriate god)?  I don't have the KotR lying about, so I could be missing a pre-req incompatibility, but a single level gets you Greater Turning, another boost to Light spells, and full martial weapons/armor proficiencies (to fix the gap caused by Cloistered Cleric).  (Really, the whole class is nice, but levels 1, 2, 3, and 5 make good break points.  Your allies in particular may appreciate the extra +2 to Will saves from the level 3 ability.)

I like the roleplaying potential of a Bone Knight in a world teeming with (hostile) Undead, but it could get a little old by level 23 or so to have to constantly re-explain how you're the GOOD kind of evil necromancer. 

Provided you can get armor back somehow, Cloistered is always good. 

Are you going to use DMM in some way?  DMM (Quicken) is a great alternative to Persist, and lets you toss up Divine Power (and/or Righteous Wrath) at the start of a fight when needed, which negates the whole issues with BAB progressions.

Edit: And just to be crazy - have you considered some sort of Ur-priest based build, instead?  It would mean no clerical abilities until level 6 or so, but you could focus on smashy abilities (or hell - Dread Necromancer?) for the first few levels, grab 2 levels of Ur-Priest, and then into your choice of divine-advancing-prestige class.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 06:57:15 PM by Janthkin »

Offline Sevash

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Re: Advice on a long-term cleric build
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 02:14:52 AM »
Ruby Knight Vindicator is a great gish class too.

Will you be taking Divine Metamagic[Persistent Spell] ?

I'm well-acquainted with RKV, but I'm not sure if that's the route I want to go down--my fiancee tends to play relatively simple classes with straightforward applications like Barbarian and Sorcerer, but she's had a taste of the Crusader class and seems to enjoy it--it doesn't hurt that the one-shot she played one in had an "unhittable" pet NPC of the DM's, and she just used the maneuver that bull-rushed him and did damage at the same time while giving us some hit points back to boot.  Earned some cheers from the other players.  Between that and her love of tripping as a tactic (she likes the mental image of knocking someone on their back and then just going hog wild on them with her weapon), it's reasonable to posit that she'll be playing a Crusader this time around...and I'm not about to knowingly take a step that overshadows my future wife by going Crusader+.  I am 6'4", and our couch isn't that comfortable.

Divine Metamagic is obvious, though.  I have the option available to me, so I intend to use it.  Persistent is more likely rather than Quicken--even if I don't go as a melee brute, I can simply Persist one of the Mass Vigor spells and then nobody can ever complain about not having any hit points.

It's a busy build already, but could you slip in a level of Radiant Servant of (some appropriate god)?... 

I like the roleplaying potential of a Bone Knight in a world teeming with (hostile) Undead...

Provided you can get armor back somehow, Cloistered is always good. 

...have you considered some sort of Ur-priest based build, instead?

You know, I hadn't really looked at Radiant Servant.  KotR gives the Sun domain at 3rd level and I won't be crying over having to take Extra Turning as a feat, so that means if I tossed Prestige Paladin out of the build (it has no incredible use if Ordained Champion isn't there) I'd look like this...

Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Master of Radiance 3/Knight of the Raven 3/Radiant Servant 1/Master of Radiance 2/Knight of the Raven 7

Not only is that a full 20-level build, but I gain my weapon and armor proficiencies at the same time I gain fifth-level spells...which makes perfect timing for Operation: Whup The Undead to go online.

I love the way Bone Knight looks and feels thematically, but I'll let it rest for now.  After all, there are rumors of Savage Tides in the future, and I know how that one ends.  Or at least, how it WILL end--with a Bone Knight commanding his crew of the dead, sailing a black-sailed sloop down the River Styx to challenge Demogorgon for the throne of Demon Prince of the 88th Layer of the Abyss.  That's not only thematic, but it's so metal it will be the cover of my Bard cohort's first album (and he will, naturally, be rocking a +1 Shocking Thundering Greataxe that grants a bonus to Perform (sick riffs)).

Compared to these two things, Ur-Priest no longer even registers on my "what to play" scale.

Are there other things I could include on what shall now be referred to as my "Blinded By The Light" build?  Feats, items, or the like?  I feel like this is going places.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 02:17:46 AM by Sevash »

Offline Janthkin

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Re: Advice on a long-term cleric build
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2013, 02:52:28 PM »
Are there other things I could include on what shall now be referred to as my "Blinded By The Light" build?  Feats, items, or the like?  I feel like this is going places.
I'm going to reuse an older post here.
Quote from: Janthkin
You'll want the "Spontaneous Domain Casting" ACF from PHB2 & you must have the Healing domain for the "Empower/Maximize/Supreme Healing" abilities to do you any good - they don't apply to EVERY Cure spell you cast, but rather to casting "a domain spell from the Healing domain."  Casting a domain spell is not the same as casting a spell that appears on a domain list - it actually is referring to casting out of your domain slot (usually 1/level/day).  Spontaneous Domain lets you spontaneously cast domain spells, e.g., from the Healing domain.

Once you have the Radiant Servant's Extra Greater Turning, destroying the undead is a matter of preparation.  You'll want a Rod of Defiance (MIC p. 56), probably a Reliquary Holy Symbol (MIC p. 120), a Circlet of Persuasion (DMG p. 252), and likely a Cloak of Charisma (DMG).  If you know you'll be facing undead, check out the "Light of ___________" line of spells from the SPC: they are specifically designed to boost your ability to crush the undead. 

DMM Persist if you can; I actually got great mileage out of DMM Quicken with my last RSoP, as it let him do things like a Quickened Divine Power before hitting things.
Given that you're doing a minimal dip into RSoP, you can skip the Spontaneous Domain (Healing) advice; you won't have the free Empower/Maximize available.

Judging by the perceived optimization level for this campaign, I'm guessing you'll have access to Night Sticks?  Maybe stacking Night Sticks? 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 02:54:46 PM by Janthkin »