Author Topic: [PF] Magus Optimization  (Read 12196 times)

Offline zaarbuc

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[PF] Magus Optimization
« on: July 26, 2013, 02:30:35 AM »
I prefer 3.5 for optimizing but after playing one campaign with PF my group seems to be determined to stick with it. (At least until my turn to DM comes around again.) So I am looking for build advice for a Magus. I would like to keep advice to Pazio sources only.

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« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 04:17:57 AM by zaarbuc »

Offline PsyBomb

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Re: [PF] Magus Optimization
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2013, 07:52:30 AM »
How many RP were you allowed? 10?

Offline zaarbuc

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Re: [PF] Magus Optimization
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2013, 01:09:50 PM »
I'd like to keep it to 10 which is what this one comes to. I'm not set on Hold Breath it just looked like an interesting way to spend the last point.

Offline Hallack

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Re: [PF] Magus Optimization
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2013, 01:48:26 PM »
Other than it being a break point is there any reason you put your 4th level ability bump into CHA?  Mechanically it is almost a total waste unless you have something specific in mind.


Offline Power

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Re: [PF] Magus Optimization
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2013, 03:33:04 PM »
Go Archer with Manyshot and use your arcane pool to deal huge elemental damage with your many attacks.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 04:07:55 PM by Power »

Offline veekie

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Re: [PF] Magus Optimization
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2013, 06:17:06 PM »
Looking at the build above, I think you'd probably need a complete retool.
Pick your primary fighting style:
-Melee, Weapon based - Go with Bladebound archetype for free weapon enhancements(stack the Black Blade's base enhancement bonus progression with your Arcane Pool to rapidly hit the enhancement cap) and the Kensai archetype for unlocking some more options to improve melee, but otherwise it's a basic 2 handed weapon build. You open fights with your buff spells or ray spells, force your opponent to close in, and then you take advantage of getting the first full attack to hit hard. Note, accuracy may be a concern, since you're 3/4 BAB, try not to take penalties to hit unless the average damage payout is good. This means avoiding Combat Expertise, and using Power Attack only when you have a distinct accuracy advantage. At earlier levels, you can Spellstrike with Shocking Grasp for an easy opening attack. While you'd probably be using a one handed weapon(likely a Rhoka, Katana or Urumi using the Kensai free proficiency), remember you can always wield it with both hands unless you explicitly need a free hand for longer than one action.

-Melee, Natural Weapon based - Use Hexcrafter(Nails and Prehensile Hair aren't the best natural weapons out there, but it beats having  nothing) to acquire natural weapons via witch hexes, and stack the [X] Shape spells on top. This style makes it easier to use Spell Combat if you really need to, since your natural weapons, if you managed to get a good set of primaries, don't suffer from iterative penalties, but it's also kind of a late bloomer, since the Magus only gets Beast Shape I at 7th level, and you'd probably want II to actually get anywhere with it.

-Ranged, Weapon based - As Power said, the Arcane Pool options are pretty good for enhancing ranged attacks, as it's easy to get a large number of best-bonus attacks with a bow(Rapid Shot, Manyshot Haste or Speed weapon), and Arcane Pool makes it easy to purchase a bunch of per-hit damage improvements. Myrmidarch archetype also gives you Ranged Spellstrike, which takes advantage of the fact that bows outrange most spells to let you get the first hit in sooner, but the full attack spellstrike isn't really that useful in comparison, since your multitarget ranged spells are much more likely to hit on their own.

-Ranged, Spell based - You have a perfectly good set of offensive spells. Focus on them and leave the swordfighting as a backup plan for when they get too close. It may be true that you aren't proficient with shields, but masterwork light shields have no armor check penalty, and mithril shields reduce the spell failure to 0. Take advantage of that to get a decent AC and fight like a wizard. Your priority is landing spells, not sword strikes.

General advice:
Spell combat is generally not very worthwhile, you lose out on both damage(using both hands should net you about 3 damage per hit, and using a 1 handed weapon rather than a reach weapon or 2 handed weapon costs you another point or two in weapon quality) and accuracy, and have to cast defensively, so you have fairly high risks of losing both spell(by readied action or failing to cast defensively) and attack(by missing due to penalty).

Familiars can be helpful, especially if they can improve your accuracy via flanking and if you've invested in Use Magic Device so they can fire wands for you, but feeding feat hungry combat styles go first.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 06:29:50 PM by veekie »
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Offline zaarbuc

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Re: [PF] Magus Optimization
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2013, 10:52:41 PM »
Other than it being a break point is there any reason you put your 4th level ability bump into CHA?  Mechanically it is almost a total waste unless you have something specific in mind.
I hate odd numbered ability scores they are a complete waste.

Offline Power

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Re: [PF] Magus Optimization
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2013, 11:39:57 PM »
Rather than Desperate Focus, it's better to get Strength of the Land (through Adopted) for +1 CL (which gives +1 concentration).

I hate odd numbered ability scores they are a complete waste.
Be that as it may, Charisma is frequently a complete waste for any character who does not have features that use it. I would drop that charisma to 7 (end result 5) and leave it there unless you're afraid of Cha damage or planning on Eldritch Heritage.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 12:33:18 AM by Power »

Offline zaarbuc

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Re: [PF] Magus Optimization
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2013, 12:52:57 AM »
Quote
General advice:
Spell combat is generally not very worthwhile, you lose out on both damage(using both hands should net you about 3 damage per hit, and using a 1 handed weapon rather than a reach weapon or 2 handed weapon costs you another point or two in weapon quality) and accuracy, and have to cast defensively, so you have fairly high risks of losing both spell(by readied action or failing to cast defensively) and attack(by missing due to penalty).

Thank you. I hadn't realized how much Concentration checks have changed. I have made Combat Casting my Racial Feat. This will give me a total of +10 to my concentration rolls meaning I only need a 7 to cast at 1st level. Still I think you have underestimated Spell combat. The loss of damage should be more than made up for by the ability to cast control or buff spells.

Be that as it may, Charisma is frequently a complete waste for any character who does not have features that use it. Unless you are planning on getting an Eldritch Heritage, I would drop that charisma to 7 (end result 5) and leave it there.
Ouch, no. I never like having negative a ability bonus even on my "dump" stats. Just think that is a -2 penalty on (let me see here...) 6+ skills, including: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and UMD. All of which except Bluff are class skills for me, and what would I spend those points on? 2 for 1 increases? IMO that is not a good trade. Especially in a 50/50 combat/role play game like we play.

The problem I see with strength of the land is the ground or unworked stone requirement.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 04:17:03 AM by zaarbuc »

Offline veekie

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Re: [PF] Magus Optimization
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2013, 04:30:31 AM »
Ah, but control and buff are considered superior to damage so what if I cast say grease then attack my now prone opponent and get an aoo if he stands and create difficult terrain for other enemies trying to close or true strike the same round I attack, and of course there's spell strike. You would think nothing of using power attack to take a -2 penalty to hit for a +4 to damage but a -2 to hit for a +5d6 or +1d6+5 and fatigue (no save) is a poor trade? I don't get it.
The tactic is making assumptions that all the steps work. Note that I advised against Power Attack, unless you explicitly have a source of accuracy making up the gap, you don't want the damage more than you want the accuracy. Spell Combat is inherently high risk, the -2 to hit make your 2-3 melee attacks more likely to miss, attacks which, given your arcane pool, carry plenty of rider damage dice, there is also a need for concentration checks, which add another failure point, and whatever spells you're casting would have saves(not so good for a 6 level casting class, your saves are slightly behind just like your attack bonus is slightly behind). You also lose the extra attack from Haste and similar, which is a pain.
Spell Strike likewise, you're replacing a high chance of hitting  with a weapon attack, which is worthwhile in 2 cases, when you are already certain to hit, or when the spell does little of significance on it's own.

Say for example, at level 8. You have a BAB of +6, and including race/enhancement items, are working with an Str of 20.  Your weapon can be enhanced to a +4, but is more likely a +2 and +2d6 damage, and you can throw a Haste on(which, incidentally, is well worth using Spell Combat for if you started combat in melee).

This gives you an attack sequence of +13/+13/+8 [W]+7+2d6.
Spell Combat with a touch spell(say Vampiric Touch as the best one you can get at that level) for an extra attack converts the sequence into +11/+6 [W]+5+2d6 and +11 [W]+5+2d6+4d6, and you need to make a DC 21 concentration check at a bonus of +11 unless you did some fancy footwork.

Expected base AC at level 8(based on the CR guidelines) is 21, which means you go from 60%/60%/35% to 50%/25%/50%. This drops to 50%/25%/25% if you need to make the concentration check, though the check is significantly easier if you use a 1st level spell like Shocking Grasp(which gives you a 50%/25%/70%).

Each use of spell combat costs a spell slot. You want to make that count. If, however, you had the time(Arcane pool costs your swift action, as does most of the Arcana which augment accuracy) and resources(keep an eye on how much of your pool and slots are burning away per combat) to add more bonuses to your attack roll, the factors change, a +5 bonus to hit across the board on top of your arcane pool enhancement bonuses work, if you can somehow apply it with your given actions. Incidentally, action efficiency is one of the reasons I advocated Bladebound, it adds damage without costing actions using it's own arcane pool, while Kensai offers AC and initiative, early, as well as better weapons and weapon specialization(though it comes so late it doesn't really add a lot).

What you WOULD find useful on spell combat is movement spells and buff spells, neither which require that you cast from inside the opponent's threatened area, nor that you provoke a save and thus eliminating one point of failure. A -2 to hit and damage for all attacks isn't quite worth the trouble for an additional attack when you don't have a high to hit to begin with.
It's worth the trouble for a debuff if you can't outright kill the target with damage in two rounds, and can fire the debuff from outside their reach. It's also worthwhile for Force Hook, Force Hook Charge, Bladed Dash or Dimension Door(since it's part of your spell combat action, not being able to take actions may not apply until spell combat resolves), since you can get a full attack a round early.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 04:39:32 AM by veekie »
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Power

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Re: [PF] Magus Optimization
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2013, 04:36:08 AM »
Be that as it may, Charisma is frequently a complete waste for any character who does not have features that use it. Unless you are planning on getting an Eldritch Heritage, I would drop that charisma to 7 (end result 5) and leave it there.

uch, no. I never like having negative a ability bonus even on my "dump" stats. Just think that is a -2 penalty on (let me see here...) 6+ skills, including: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and UMD. All of which except Bluff are class skills for me, and what would I spend those points on? 2 for 1 increases? IMO that is not a good trade. Especially in a 50/50 combat/role play game like we play.
Well, you can just pick the Student of Philosophy social trait which lets you use your Int instead of Cha to convince people for the purposes of Bluff and Diplomacy. Bruising Intellect, a different and therefore mutually exclusive social trait, lets you use int instead of cha for intimidate checks. Normally that would compete against the Adopted social trait, but if you hand yourself a dwarf subtype with the racebuilder you won't be needing it. Also, Pragmatic Activator magic trait lets you use int instead of cha for UMD checks, but that would compete against Strength of the Land.

The problem I see with strength of the land is the ground or unworked stone requirement.
Touching the ground is easy, and the unworked stone requirement makes a joke out of it because you can put some pebbles (It's unworked stone.) in your boots and keep the +1 CL at all times.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 04:51:38 AM by Power »

Offline zaarbuc

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Re: [PF] Magus Optimization
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2013, 09:35:29 AM »
Quote
Touching the ground is easy, and the unworked stone requirement makes a joke out of it because you can put some pebbles (It's unworked stone.) in your boots and keep the +1 CL at all times.
Okay that is a good trick but but I could see a DM imposing some kind of penalty for walking around all day with pebbles in your boots. I will look at some of your other suggestions though. I like X for Y trades.

Offline Power

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Re: [PF] Magus Optimization
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2013, 06:42:57 PM »
Here's the X Stat to Y Bonus Handbook.

Also, you don't actually need to touch pebbles with your feet. If you wanted, you could just tape it to yourself. Take 20 on a Heal check with some bandages and you tie some pebbles to yourself without any problems. The requirement's really easy.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 07:46:04 PM by Power »