Author Topic: Crusader/Cleric without RVK  (Read 4405 times)

Offline jurin

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Crusader/Cleric without RVK
« on: November 12, 2013, 02:59:18 PM »
Hello All,

I've been struggling with a PC I'm trying to make.  The player's in my group are mostly new and I'm jumping in to fill some gaps.  They lack a tank and a healer, and although I know groups dont necessarily need either, I'd still like to play a combination to great effect.

My DM and I have ruled out RVK but just about anything else goes.  I'd prefer not to use a lot of splatbooks and builds that have 5 different classes.  Mostly looking for a build that has Crusader and can heal.

Most of the trouble I'm having is choosing what class to heal with and what kind of progression I should take in the classes as I level.  Does anyone have any experience building a tank/healer without RVK?

Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Crusader/Cleric without RVK
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2013, 04:48:23 PM »
Crusader alone can heal fairly well...

Offline Iainuki

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Re: Crusader/Cleric without RVK
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2013, 04:50:37 PM »
Crusader into hellreaver (FC2)?  If you're looking to heal in combat, hellreaver has one of the strongest abilities for that, though it can't heal or frankly do anything outside of combat.  (Neither can crusader, so...)  That said, there are two things more fundamental here.  First, how do you intend to tank?  Because that's something that's only marginally possible in 3.5 at all.  Second, since no PrC except RKV advances martial powers and casting at the same time, what do you mean by "has crusader?"  I can tell you right now there's no way to heal with spells and take many levels in crusader.  Crusader 1/cleric 4/PrC, say RSoP, is going to end up playing like a melee cleric more than any kind of crusader, but if you take more crusader levels your heals will fall behind HP even more quickly than they do normally.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 05:48:33 PM by Iainuki »

Offline jurin

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Re: Crusader/Cleric without RVK
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2013, 05:17:05 PM »
I suppose that is what I was afraid of.  I thought maybe it was possible to tank using the lockdown  stances/maneuvers of the Crusader, but be able to heal decently through Cleric spellcasting.  I wasn't aware of the heal dropoff towards HP, I've never played a campaign past level 8 at this point.  Thanks for your insights!

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Crusader/Cleric without RVK
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2013, 05:44:30 PM »
The insights above are good, but I think you're misreading them as overly pessimistic.  Your plan, to with:  use lockdown tactics and then spells to heal/tank is a fine one.  You really only need Thicket of Blades to make it work, which can be gotten with feats, gear, or a dip.  They were just saying that both Crusader or Cleric want you to take a lot of levels in them, or combine them in RKV. 

Lockdown will effectively let you tank in two ways.  It will allow you to block access to your squishier allies.  And, it will reduce the damage you have to absorb.  It's not foolproof, namely it only applies to melee combat.  But, there's a lot of that in D&D and foolproof combos are no fun.

Cleric spells are the gold standard for healing, understanding that healing also includes stuff like condition removal.  And, they will also allow you to tank in another way, namely by resisting damage or negative effects.

Look into Ordained Champion as well.  Its channel spell ability can be really useful, you can also combine it with the Travel Devotion.  It will allow you to take better advantage of your reach weapons for spellcasting.

Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Crusader/Cleric without RVK
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2013, 08:13:37 PM »
Basically Cleric is a good Tank (along with being silly good at a bunch of other things), Crusader is a good tank, going 50% cleric 50% crusader weakens both unless it's something like a 1 level cleric dip for domains or 1-2 level dip in Crusader for some stances/strikes.

Offline Keldar

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Re: Crusader/Cleric without RVK
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2013, 10:39:17 PM »
Since wand use gets recommended often for between fight healing, and Crusaders are solid in fight healers thanks to action efficiency, you could go the opposite direction and dip (Cloistered) Cleric on a Crusader build instead.  Or go with Bard instead of Cleric and take Jade Phoenix Mage PrC and grab Song of the White Raven and Battlecaster.

Offline Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Crusader/Cleric without RVK
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2013, 04:20:38 AM »
Use divine adaptation of Abjurant Champion.

Cleric 4/Crusader x/Abjurant Champion 5/Maybe Ordained Champion to get some bonus fighter feats to help with lockdown.
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Offline bobtheapple

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Re: Crusader/Cleric without RVK
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2013, 08:36:40 AM »
Really, Iron Guard's Glare and Shield Block with a heavy or tower shield (or a spell that gives a shield bonus to AC, for that matter) is a really solid tanking combo.  Assuming the enemy's to-hit doesn't completely outclass the party's AC (and that's on your GM) and decent reach, you can easily give opponents a -4 to -12 (or -20% to -60% chance) to hit allies.  Rapidly your GM (and through him, the monsters) will learn that to hit anything he will have to attack you.  I have been running a campaign from 5th level up to 8th now, and so far the party Crusader has been very effective at "taking aggro" in this manner.  Note that enemies are aware of the effects of iron guard's glare, and they will become immediately aware of the potency of shield block the first time you use it in combat.  Both of these need only one level of Crusader to take, as either your 5th or 9th level (or so I recommend).

I second Dictum Mortuum's idea for divine Abjurant Champion (if it is acceptable to your GM) coupled with Divine Magician, which would allow you to add 9 wizard spells to your cleric spell list, notably shield.  Note that shield block can be used with spell shields, so that would give +13 AC to adjacent allies with 5 levels of Abjurant Champion.  I recently made a build that did this and used Shield Specialization(Spell) and Shield ward to get the +10 shield bonus to a slew of things, but mostly touch AC.  If using shield specialization for spells is too cheesy for you or you want to cut down on feats, Parrying Shield is a great alternative (Shield to Touch AC only, but only 1 feat).  For armor you would cast luminous armor or the greater version, of course.  This allows you to have high dex as well, to fuel combat reflexes and thus lock-down.

When combining Tome of Battle with other classes without using the ToB PRCs, I would always recommend only dipping 1 or 2 levels of your initiator class.  The thing about ToB is that it is amazingly friendly to dipping, in a way no other classes are really.  A Cleric 18/Crusader 2 is maneuvers-wise competitive with an 10-11th level character.  A Crusader 18/Cleric 2 is spell-wise equivalent to a second level character.

Another note about the role of healer: what many people overlook is that in D&D, "Healing" is not strictly, and even not often, a matter of hit point restoration.  The party can deal with HP loss: through magic items such as wands and potions, class abilities, feats, maneuvers, and even good old fashion bed rest.  Even arcane casters and psionic characters get a limited array of hit point healing spells.  In my mind, a true healer in D&D is able to handle the more potent afflictions that characters aren't able to cure readily on their own: Negative levels, Ability Damage/Drain, Petrification, other long duration or permanent crowd control, and the big one: Death.  Often times, you wont even GET a chance to heal a character before he dies: some trap will trigger, some group of monsters will get a lucky string of rolls, or a spellcaster will nuke the party with high damage or save or dies.  And at that point you will realize that what a Crusader grants is not healing exactly but sustainability, and there is a big difference.  I'm not saying Crusader is bad (in fact I love the class) but their capstone healing ability is Heal, not True Resurrection.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 08:43:42 AM by bobtheapple »

Offline Iainuki

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Re: Crusader/Cleric without RVK
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2013, 10:11:08 AM »
Really, Iron Guard's Glare and Shield Block with a heavy or tower shield (or a spell that gives a shield bonus to AC, for that matter) is a really solid tanking combo.  Assuming the enemy's to-hit doesn't completely outclass the party's AC (and that's on your GM) and decent reach, you can easily give opponents a -4 to -12 (or -20% to -60% chance) to hit allies.

Iron guard's glare can be quite strong, but I don't like shield block because standing adjacent to allies in combat is rarely a good idea.  Ranged combatants of all kinds shouldn't be near melee at all if you can help it, and if you're standing next to them, you aren't in melee range either and and aren't decreasing enemy attack with iron guard's glare.  Other melee characters usually want to be setting up flanking, engaging other opponents, or otherwise not standing next to you.  Also, bunching up to take advantage of abilities that require adjacency make the party an easy target for any and all AoEs.  It's better tactically to spread out.

Instead, consider iron guard's glare with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip.  Prone enemies get -4 to their melee attacks and have a harder time making ranged attacks (depending on how exactly your DM interprets those rules), iron guard's glare gives another -4, and you can use Combat Expertise for another +5 to your own AC to make your whole party hard to hit.  Skip the shield, though you can still use spells like shield, and you can use a two-handed weapon so you have at least some damage when you aren't doing AC-boosting.  Be aware that this combination simply doesn't matter against enemies with spells, breath weapons, gaze attacks, or other offenses that aren't based on making attack rolls, so you need another stance and other abilities so you have something to do when fighting them.

When combining Tome of Battle with other classes without using the ToB PRCs, I would always recommend only dipping 1 or 2 levels of your initiator class.  The thing about ToB is that it is amazingly friendly to dipping, in a way no other classes are really.  A Cleric 18/Crusader 2 is maneuvers-wise competitive with an 10-11th level character.  A Crusader 18/Cleric 2 is spell-wise equivalent to a second level character.

This is good advice.  You don't need to take a huge number of crusader levels to get some stances and maneuvers.  Two levels of crusader at 5th and 9th will get you iron guard's glare and thicket of blades.

Another note about the role of healer: what many people overlook is that in D&D, "Healing" is not strictly, and even not often, a matter of hit point restoration.  The party can deal with HP loss: through magic items such as wands and potions, class abilities, feats, maneuvers, and even good old fashion bed rest.  Even arcane casters and psionic characters get a limited array of hit point healing spells.  In my mind, a true healer in D&D is able to handle the more potent afflictions that characters aren't able to cure readily on their own: Negative levels, Ability Damage/Drain, Petrification, other long duration or permanent crowd control, and the big one: Death.  Often times, you wont even GET a chance to heal a character before he dies: some trap will trigger, some group of monsters will get a lucky string of rolls, or a spellcaster will nuke the party with high damage or save or dies.  And at that point you will realize that what a Crusader grants is not healing exactly but sustainability, and there is a big difference.  I'm not saying Crusader is bad (in fact I love the class) but their capstone healing ability is Heal, not True Resurrection.

This is also good advice.  Most of the time the only healing-like spells worth casting in combat are spells that restore characters who've been taken out of combat by incapacitating attacks.  It's basic action economy: if you can spend a standard action to cure a dazed, stunned, petrified, frightened, panicked, cowering, nauseated, or so on ally, you often come out ahead on actions because you've recovered their actions in future turns.  Where most non-casters come up short is that healing HP damage, especially in combat, is not that useful a thing to be doing.  HP damage doesn't take you out of the fight until it drops you unconscious or kills you.  (At higher levels, the 10 HP gap between "dying" and "dead" becomes meaningless because as damage increases, most sources of damage do enough overkill to take their targets straight to dead.)  SoDs take their targets out of the fight when they land.