Wrestling with early entry Mystic Theurge and Arcane Hierophant

[Sjappo]

I'm cobbling together an Arcane Hierophant. But I'm having some trouble with the early entry. I think that I have the casting bit sorted out. But I'm struggling with the skills.

See, I really want to go Sorcerer/Druid instead of Wizard/Druid. Which gives me to little skill ranks. I cannot seem to enter Mystic Theurge at 6.

Build Stub:
Druid 3 / Sorcerer 1 / Druid +1 / Mystic Theurge 2 / Arcane Hierophant
Stats: 18,16,14,12,12,10. Arrange as desired.

Skills:
Knowledge Nature is no problem. Taking 8 ranks in 4 levels Druid. Job done.

Knowledge Arcana can be handled. Taking 6 cross class points with druid and adding 3 class ranks with sorcerer will get me to 6. Enough to enter MT. The 2 levels MT will give me enough skillpoints to get it to 8 for AH. I’ll need an INT of 12 or 14 though. Which can be arranged.

Knowledge Religion is a problem. I only have 5 levels netting me 8 cross class ranks. That’s 4. Crap.

So I need Knowledge Religion as a class skill. Able Learning is not going work since more ranks. I’m managing the points well enough. I know Knowledge Devotion will work. I even fits fluff wise. But my last character was using Knowledge Devotion on a Cloistered Cleric. So I’d like something different.

Any ideas on how to get Knowledge Religion as a class skill, other than through Knowledge Devotion?

Race:
I’m still looking for a race. My DM is probably enforcing multiclass penalties so I need a race with Druid, Sorcerer or Any as favoured class. If not I would grab some kind of Halfling and the Halfling substitution level and call it a day.

Wanted to go Fire Gnome for a small race with sorcerer or druid as favoured class. An old Crystal Keep download gave this as LA+0. But the Planar Handbook lists it as LA+1. To expensive.

Human is good but dull.

Bhuka is nice thematically. As are Wild and Painted elves although both have INT penalties which hurt in the skillpoint department. Half-Drow is nice as well. All are medium though.

Tips anyone?

We’re playing in the Forgotten Realms so all Faerun material is a go. I can probably squeeze Eberon stuff through as well.

[Sjappo]

Just found Apprentice (DMG2, thanx Google and BG) which will fix it quite nicely. Spellcaster Apprentice will enhance the build quite nicely. So much so that I could enter with Druid 3/Sorcerer1 if it weren't for the BAB +4 from Arcane Hierophant. Fractional BAB won't fly I'm afraid.

So for now I'm at:

Ghostwise Halfling (ignoring multiclass penalties for the moment)
STR 10-2 | DEX 12+2 | CON 14 | WIS 18 | INT 12 | CHA 16

1 Druid Halfling Druid substitution, Apprentice Spellcaster. Taking Knowledge Religion and Knowledge Arcana as class skills
2 Druid
3 Druid
4 Sorcerer, Alternate Spell Source, WIS +1
5 Druid
6 Mystic Theurge, Natural Bond
7 Mystic Theurge
8 Arcane Hierophant, WIS +1, Brown Bear as Companion Familiar and ride.

There you have it.

Thoughts?

[Nunkuruji]

My personal preference for Sorcerer based Arcane Hierophant is some arrangement of

Dragonwrought Kobold Totem Druid 3 / Sorcerer 1 / Mystic Theurge 6 / Arcane Hierophant 10

Greater Draconic Rite of Passage
Natural Bond
Enspell Familiar (or the lesser Companion Spellbond, depending on DM allowance of Dragon or interpretation of familiar companion)
9th level slots on both classes
Totem variant from Dragon, beefier animal companion at the expense of wild shape / animal companion choices. Tiger personally preferred.


As you're aware, entry in a timely manner is more challenging than with wizard


There are a few ways to enter with 4 base class levels, these methods are covered/debated better elsewhere. Some are easier based on the flexibility of your DM. Off the top of my head:

1. Sorcerer as 1st level, Precocious Apprentice, Education/Apprentice/etc. Results in fewer skill points.
2. Druid / Sorcerer / Druid / Druid. Alternative Spell Source, Practiced Spellcaster (CL4 minus 1, need CL3 to cast the 2nd level spell). Requires retraining feats at 3rd level.
3. Druid / Sorcerer / Druid / Druid. Education/Apprentice/etc, Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell. Requires Human or Flaws.
4. Illumian Improved Sigil: Krau method

[bobtheapple]

Knowledge(Religion) is a tough one, and with those parameters its even harder.  The Educated feat would save you all of the cross-classing waste.  Apprentice(Spellcaster) for a wizard apprenticing a sorcerer or a cleric apprenticing a druid would work, which would give you 1 knowledge and UMD on your spell list, as well as some spell swapping.  For elves, Aereni Focus would work: it both adds the skill to your skill list and gives you a +3 bonus, counting as skill focus.  In my games, I allow the 3.0 version of cosmopolitan, which is similar, but is available to anyone, only a +2, and doesn't count as skill focus.

As for small races that fit your requirements, Strongheart Human Halflings have Favored Class: Any.

[Sjappo]

Knowledge(Religion) is a tough one, and with those parameters its even harder.  The Educated feat would save you all of the cross-classing waste.  Apprentice(Spellcaster) for a wizard apprenticing a sorcerer or a cleric apprenticing a druid would work, which would give you 1 knowledge and UMD on your spell list, as well as some spell swapping.  For elves, Aereni Focus would work: it both adds the skill to your skill list and gives you a +3 bonus, counting as skill focus.  In my games, I allow the 3.0 version of cosmopolitan, which is similar, but is available to anyone, only a +2, and doesn't count as skill focus.

As for small races that fit your requirements, Strongheart Human Halflings have Favored Class: Any.

Yeah. I guess Educated would be the best bet. Apprentice gives some nice bonusses like preferred spell but I'm not sure it's worth it.

BTW, Strongheart Halflings have prefered class Rogue, like all Halflings, according the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. So unless it is errata-ed somewhere ... to bad.

There are a few ways to enter with 4 base class levels, these methods are covered/debated better elsewhere. Some are easier based on the flexibility of your DM. Off the top of my head:

1. Sorcerer as 1st level, Precocious Apprentice, Education/Apprentice/etc. Results in fewer skill points.
2. Druid / Sorcerer / Druid / Druid. Alternative Spell Source, Practiced Spellcaster (CL4 minus 1, need CL3 to cast the 2nd level spell). Requires retraining feats at 3rd level.
3. Druid / Sorcerer / Druid / Druid. Education/Apprentice/etc, Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell. Requires Human or Flaws.
4. Illumian Improved Sigil: Krau method

Getting into Mystic Theurge at lvl 4 is not really the problem. And even if you do get in  you only have a BAB of 2. That leaves you with 4 levels MT to gain the other +2. Entry at 9. A 4th level druid plus 2 levels MT gives +2 as well. Entry at 8 at the cost of 1 casterlevel. But saving 1 animal companion level. I'll take the second option. That way I can start play as an Arcane Hierophant and I like my AC beter than the Sorcerer side.

[ksbsnowowl]

Just for ideas:

My Arcane Hierophant.  This is for one of the PbP games, but the character originated several years ago for what became my most horrific "Bad DM" experience.  I'd always wanted to bring him back, and this was the perfect way.

Anyway, he originally was a Wizard 1/Druid 5/Arc Hier 1+
Either way will go for you, I think.

The skill requirements as a sorcerer are rough.  They always get the shaft.

Killoren are Fav Class: Druid.

[bobtheapple]

BTW, Strongheart Halflings have prefered class Rogue, like all Halflings, according the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. So unless it is errata-ed somewhere ... to bad.

Oh no!  I guess I'm just too use to thinking of them as little humans.  My bad.  Okay, races:  Several of the anthropomorphics have druid as a favored class, but they all take a charisma hit and are likely banned.  Killoren from races of the wild and bamboo folk from OA, but they are both medium sized... I'm actually surprised that there are no 0 LA small races with sorcerer as a favored class other than kobolds, and none with druid except the anthros.

[Sjappo]

Yeah, I'm having my eyes set on a Halfling Riding a huge ass bear. So it's going to be Ghostwise Halfling. I got the skills sorted out with Education. Got me a bit of a backstory right there. Its pretty much this:

Ghostwise Halfling
STR 10-2 | DEX 12+2 | CON 14 | WIS 18 | INT 12 | CHA 16

1 Druid Halfling Druid substitution, Education
2 Druid
3 Druid Alternate Spell Source
4 Sorcerer, Alternate Spell Source, WIS +1
5 Mystic Theurge
6 Mystic Theurge, Natural Bond
7 Druid Planar druid substituton (probably)
8 Arcane Hierophant, WIS +1, Brown Bear as Companion Familiar and ride.

So I'm set. Thanx for the tips.

@ksbsnowowl. What do you need Natural Spell for? Arcane Hierophant only progresses Wildshape if you have it. And since you only have 4 levels of Druid in there, no wildshape. Magic of the Land is a very nice feat BTW. I'll keep that in mind.

[phaedrusxy]

@ksbsnowowl. What do you need Natural Spell for? Arcane Hierophant only progresses Wildshape if you have it. And since you only have 4 levels of Druid in there, no wildshape. Magic of the Land is a very nice feat BTW. I'll keep that in mind.

If that's your interpretation, then you should take that 5th druid level...

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

If your having trouble with the prereqs then look through the prereq handbook. I'm currently making dual progression builds for all the applicable PrCs, and I see no build that actually forces having a 2nd level in any of the progressed classes.

[ksbsnowowl]

@ksbsnowowl. What do you need Natural Spell for? Arcane Hierophant only progresses Wildshape if you have it. And since you only have 4 levels of Druid in there, no wildshape. Magic of the Land is a very nice feat BTW. I'll keep that in mind.

         
Wild Shape (Su): If you do not already possess the ability, you gain no new ability to wild shape. However, you add your arcane hierophant level to your druid level and gain the wild shape ability of a druid of the resulting level. For example, a character who is a 3rd-level wizard/3rd-level druid/4th-level arcane hierophant has the wild shape ability of a 7th-level druid. If you are not a druid, (for example, if you entered the class as a wizard/ranger), you do not gain the ability to wild shape.

   
There are three statements about how to calculate your wild shape ability (well, four, if you count the last sentence).  Two (or three) of those three (or four) statements agree with each other, while the red one disagrees with them.  The agreeing statements are quite explicit that you do gain the ability, even if you don't have five druid levels.

Given that, it can be fairly reliably concluded that the first sentence is incomplete, and it was likely intended to indicate what the last sentence tells us.
 
Arcane Hierophant is the ultimate example of Rule 0 - Check with your DM.

[Sjappo]

A man. I must learn how to read. Do you know I read that piece several times and never really got past the second sentence? Thanx. Btw I didn't mind loosing wildshape but o well.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

If your having trouble with the prereqs then look through the prereq handbook. I'm currently making dual progression builds for all the applicable PrCs, and I see no build that actually forces having a 2nd level in any of the progressed classes.

Uh-oh ... 

[Sjappo]

If your having trouble with the prereqs then look through the prereq handbook. I'm currently making dual progression builds for all the applicable PrCs, and I see no build that actually forces having a 2nd level in any of the progressed classes.

Which handbook do you mean exactly. The only one I could find was this one. Bu I'm guessing that's not it.

I'd love to see those builds BTW. Are you basically saying you could enter i.e. Mystic Theurge as Wizard 1 Cleric 1?

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

You don't want feat alternatives to count for prereqs. You want to get early entry for the prereqs themselves for early entry.

I thought this one was already ported but the handbook forum is a mess -- exactly as I said it would be. I even offered to clean and prune it myself. Anyways I don't have a subforum for myself, so I can't be sure what I've ported here and what I haven't. I have a lot of stuff I need to dump, but its kind of a downer to know it'll get buried anyway.

[jameswilliamogle]

My favorite build was bard 1/druid3/bard +1/mystic theurge2/arcanehieromphant2/that other bard Prc 1/sublime chord 2/arcane+8. Doable w a 15 int human but tight. That's the versatile spellcaster method.

[Sjappo]

My favorite build was bard 1/druid3/bard +1/mystic theurge2/arcanehieromphant2/that other bard Prc 1/sublime chord 2/arcane+8. Doable w a 15 int human but tight. That's the versatile spellcaster method.

Thanx. Seems like a fun build. Bard may even be better than sorcerer for that. You'll loose an extra casterlevel though. But I'm settled, thanx.

[Dictum Mortuum]

You could actually use beguiler.

Beguiler 1/Druid 5/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge +2