Author Topic: A Fighter 20 Thread™  (Read 5990 times)

Offline muktidata

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A Fighter 20 Thread™
« on: November 29, 2013, 04:58:05 PM »
I'm going to work on a scale-able fighter 20 build. I'm currently on the hunt for alternate class features. The ACF list does not include magazine content which I'd probably like to include. Here's where I'm at so far. Feel free to contribute. I'm not sold on things like Armor of God, Resolute, or any of the racial sub levels yet.

Anyway, here's what I have so far:
1-20 Thug (Unearthed Arcana p.51)
2, 4 Dungeon Crasher (Dungeonscape p.10)
1-20 Skilled City-Dweller: Tumble (Cityscape Web)
3, 5, 9 Zhentarim Soldier (Champions of Valor Web)
3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19 Physical Prowess (Dead Levels Article Web)
1 Celestial-Attended Birth (Champions of Valor p.22)
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Offline Maat Mons

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2013, 05:58:37 PM »
The other ACF list has Dragon stuff. 

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2013, 06:09:51 PM »
Celestial-attended birth is not an ACF.  It is a regional background and nothing more.

As far as dragon mag ACFs go, I would hope me linking to the Dragon Mag ACF handbook in various threads would be enough to get people to bookmark it, but it seems that hasn't been the case.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2013, 06:14:29 PM »
I bookmarked it, it's right next to WotC's ACFs and both are below Class Boosters. For all your class oriented needs.

Offline muktidata

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2013, 09:32:48 PM »
Celestial-attended birth is not an ACF.  It is a regional background and nothing more.

As far as dragon mag ACFs go, I would hope me linking to the Dragon Mag ACF handbook in various threads would be enough to get people to bookmark it, but it seems that hasn't been the case.

I've literally never seen that! But guess what? It's bookmarked now! Thanks for the link and thanks for porting it and cleaning it up! The dead level stuff isn't technically an ACF either. I marked down the birth bit to remember where the background stuff was and I am thinking about using Otherworldly to regain Martial Weapon Proficiencies in case I trade them away.

The other ACF list has Dragon stuff. 

Thank you.

Once I have the ACF's figured out, I'll move on to a race I find suitable and then work on feats/tactics and finally magic items.
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Offline muktidata

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2013, 11:20:29 PM »
Is Eldritch Juggernaut worth it? SR 11+HD gained in lieu of the level 18 feat? What about Fortification?

Also, I wonder which one wins out between Thug (UA), Kensai, and Pugilist? I'm trying to find where these have been discussed before.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2013, 12:27:58 AM »
Kensai is only worth getting an exotic weapon for free and then getting extra attacks with it, and at slightly worse accuracy than other similar abilities (Rapid Shot and Flurry of Blows are both -2 on all attacks to get an extra attack for example).  That's partially offset by the increased accuracy though which is +1 at 1st, then +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th, +4 at 15th, and +5 at 20th.  The limited feat list is also a bit of a problem for reasons that should be fairly obvious.

Pugilist is most notable for its Shake It Off ability which can be interpreted as essentially making it immune to lethal damage because it only develops nonlethal damage.  Combo with some way to become immune to nonlethal damage such as the warforged feat Improved Resiliency and it breaks the game.  Besides that though, the pugilist doesn't have much going for it because its unarmed strike doesn't get a damage boost like a monk's does and thus has to rely on items, feats, and buffs (Greater Mighty Wallop comes to mind) to boost it.  The combo ability is only useful when you've got a good enough attack bonus to be reasonably sure of both getting through.  It also suffers a bit from the limited fighter feat list.

Thug is nice for when you don't care about (or don't want) heavy armor, but do want more skills.  It's still a pity that listen and spot aren't on the list for guard types, but oh well.  The good thing about thug is it doesn't restrict your fighter feat choices so stuff like Shock Trooper can be had more easily.

If you're going fighter 20, I'd stick with thug.  Kensai is better for dipping than staying in the whole way and pugilist mostly sucks at what it does unless you absolutely need to beat stuff unconscious with nonlethal damage, but even then there are better ways to do it.

Eldritch Juggernaut is bad because fighters tend to rely on buffs and SR will screw with that.  That and it's way too late to be meaningful in a typical adventure.  If it could be gotten somewhere in 8-12 then it might be worthwhile, but at 18?  More combat asskickery can be had for the feat.

Fortification is likewise late to the party.  Light fort is a +1, so if it's wanted on gear it can easily be done by 6th but if absolutely needed is doable at 4th if going by the WBL table on DMG 135.  Heavy fort's +5 is another matter (and overpriced), but if absolutely needed a +6 suit of armor is 36k, so it's in the neighborhood of 11th or 12th when it might become an option if one's maximum expense on an item is 1/2 they're WBL.

Offline Maat Mons

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2013, 12:46:11 AM »
I wonder which one wins out between Thug (UA), Kensai, and Pugilist?

Why is pugilist in that question?  As far as I can tell, kensai and shield bearer are the only variants in that article incompatible with thug. 

Offline muktidata

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2013, 01:04:56 AM »
Without looking, just a quick response: I think they both trade away armor prof's. I might be wrong, though.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 01:10:27 AM by muktidata »
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Offline Maat Mons

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2013, 01:15:27 AM »
Oh, pugilist loses shield proficiency.  I'd missed that. 

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2013, 04:11:34 AM »
I wonder which one wins out between Thug (UA), Kensai, and Pugilist?

Why is pugilist in that question?  As far as I can tell, kensai and shield bearer are the only variants in that article incompatible with thug.

Targetteers can only use bucklers, so that's incompatible with thug too since it can't trade away shield profs it doesn't have.

Offline Iainuki

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2013, 10:48:16 AM »
Also, I wonder which one wins out between Thug (UA), Kensai, and Pugilist? I'm trying to find where these have been discussed before.

Thug is the only fighter variant that gets anything in the way of out-of-combat utility.  Entirely aside from the other problems of the class, for that reason alone thug is the only fighter variant I'd consider taking past level 2.  Of course, after that you have to solve fighter's lack of damage.

Offline muktidata

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2013, 11:55:48 AM »
I'm still toying with a few things at the moment. Does Imperious Command really work for Dreadful Wrath? I've seen them used in conjunction in a number of builds, but I'm wondering if they actually work?

Imperious Command specifies that it triggers when you successfully demoralize someone, but Dreadful Wrath states that it gives you a frightful presence. As long as you are generating fear does it count as demoralization? At first glance, I read Imperious Command as only affecting the demoralization option of the Intimidate class skill.
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Offline Iainuki

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2013, 12:38:37 PM »
Imperious Command only affects what happens when you demoralize an opponent with Intimidate.  However, most fear effects, including Dreadful Wrath and demoralizing with Imperious Command, stack.

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2013, 12:51:31 PM »
I hate Thug, I'd rather just have a decent Int and get class skills by other means (Like Martial Study on a WR maneuver to get Diplomacy) if having out of combat skills was so important (spells still obsolete those just as much as they do to the rogue, so I don't see the appeal anyway...).  It's just really terrible.  Bad trade, and locks you out of better options like Hit and Run Fighter or Targeteer.

I would do a Goliath Hit and Run Dungeoncrasher Zhentarim Fighter if I were to make a level 20 (or 19 if you can't buy off the level adjustment) Fighter, myself.

Offline muktidata

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2013, 01:25:18 PM »
Well. I look at it like this: You can't really go strength AND dex at the same time. You focus on one or the other. If you're saying a Dex-based Fighter is generally better than a Str-based fighter, maybe. I see Nymp's Kiss getting praised constantly on the boards for giving you extra skill points, so why not Thug? It's twice as many at the cost of a "free" feat and some proficiencies.

I'm actually considering a Human Thug with Nymp's Kiss, lol.
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Offline Nezkrul

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2013, 01:50:48 PM »
Overpowering Attack (sp?) from PHB2, acf for 16 fighter, replaces bonus feat, gives you the ability to take a full round action and make 1 melee attack with a two handed weapon, that attack and all attacks you make before the start of your next turn do double damage.

Offline Iainuki

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2013, 04:34:58 PM »
I hate Thug, I'd rather just have a decent Int and get class skills by other means (Like Martial Study on a WR maneuver to get Diplomacy) if having out of combat skills was so important (spells still obsolete those just as much as they do to the rogue, so I don't see the appeal anyway...).

Spells are always and at all times better than anything non-casters can do.  You might as well say that spells make weapon damage obsolete because they're a superior means of killing things, which is true but irrelevant when we're discussing fighter 20.  Non-casters need a way to contribute out of combat, and for most non-casting classes that means skills since their class features don't give them utility and there are only a handful of feats that do anything worthwhile out of combat.

As for Int, I think it is an important stat for non-casters specifically because they need skills for mobility and utility, but getting better Int necessarily requires sacrificing somewhere else, and 4 points of Int, the difference between 2 + Int and 4 + Int skills, is a lot.  What fighter feat gives you the equivalent of +4 stat points or +2 skill points/level?  Martial Study is a decent way to add class skills if you're going fighter 20, but it works better as a supplement to thug than a replacement for thug, both because thug gives more skill points and because it has in-class skills that Martial Study can't grant.

Offline Keldar

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Re: A Fighter 20 Thread™
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2013, 07:24:44 PM »
If I were going to make a Fighter 20, I'd give Diopsid a long hard look.  (Dragon #267, or Dragon Compendium Vol 1, pg 10)  The bug eyed weirdos allow you to use Two Handed, Two Weapon, and Sword & Board fighting styles all at the same time.  (Which means you have fewer feats going to waste each round. ) While allowing Dex to be a dump stat.  All for the low price of 1 LA, looking silly, and needing to burn a feat to improve their garbage Touch AC.