Author Topic: Rocket launcher tag, action multiplication, and all that  (Read 10581 times)

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Rocket launcher tag, action multiplication, and all that
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2014, 03:03:47 PM »
If I am not mistaken, rocket tag, by definition, is the continuing escalation of power levels and or reprisals by the players vs dm? a one-shot or occasional accident don't really qualify. I feel that rocket tag is the lawful-stupid alignment/play style of players and dms alike.
I think this may explain some confusion or disagreement in this thread.  I'm not sure that's what people mean by "rocket tag."  Or, more accurately, it's not what I think the term means. 

I think of rocket tag as a kind of enforced glass cannon situation:  any "hit" will take a target out of the combat. 

There's naturally a correlation between that and optimization.  A weak Barbarian's charge is just some damage, a cracked out Ubercharger's is a "rocket" b/c its damage needs to use scientific notation. 

D&D's tendency to rocket tag, then, exists b/c of the number of save or die type of effects, perhaps coupled with high variance in the hit points and ACs of enemies, which creates a tendency do damage that ends up being rocket-like against some or many foes.  Also, the extent to which it favors offense, i.e., to the point where resources (actions, feats, etc.) expended on resources are less efficient for defense than they are for offense, provided the offenses can take enemies out of the fight in a single shot, the game would be tilted towards rocket tag. 

I earlier alluded to White Wolf as being a system rife with rocket tag (and, orthogonally, one that has few means to guard yourself against it).  This has almost nothing to do with optimization.  It's mostly the case that there are dozens of powers that amount to "I win" buttons that nobody can really do anything about.

The quoted passage above seems more like what I'd call the "Arms Race."  Again, there's a natural relation between that and rocket tag, but they aren't the same thing.  At least that's the way I understand them.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Rocket launcher tag, action multiplication, and all that
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2014, 12:07:56 PM »
ah, i see. that does make a huge difference. i've always thought of rocket tag not as a particular build which can punch the lights out of another build/encounter, but as when the one punched retaliates with something even stronger, and back and forth... hence "tag"; as in the game of tag where kids run around tagging each other. i have always had "rocket tag" defined to me as someone hits someone else, so they hit them back, the first then uses a weapon, so does the second, then the first pulls out a bigger weapon, and it escalates until one or both are using rockets, or similarly overpowered and ridiculous weapons for a supposed game of "tag".

a KO or one-shot result therefore "cannot" be 'tag' based on how i was viewing it and the generally accepted definition of the word tag. thus, in my view, your one-shot-no-defense or save-or-lose or just-lose results... i've never thought of as qualifying for the term "tag". so in summary - tag implies continuing escalation, while one-shotting is a single situation.

now that we have that out of the way: i see that we are actually talking about two different things. you were, if i now understand correctly, speaking all along of a given system's potential for one-shot-little-to-no-defense builds and combos, which certainly is a system specific thing - though i will continue to contend that the mis-use or mis-application of such rules and combos in a fashion inappropriate for a given group's goals remains a human choice, and is thus a human problem with a human solution.

***

perhaps i am going so far as to claim that irregardless of the game or rules, mature players won't mis-apply such rules. that is not to say that such rules and combos won't be used, but rather that a mature player will pick and choose carefully where they use something which is overwhelmingly powerful. now having said that... i guess the corollary is that the vast majority of players are therefore... not mature.

and by mature, i don't mean age, or level of system mastery, or even years of experience in gaming. i've met grognards of 20-30+ years experience in gaming who are not mature, and behave in an immature fashion any time they are challenged on something, irrespective of the merits of the challenge.

***

also, while i'm meandering about these topics, i would like to contend that the whole glass cannon situation is not necessarily undesirable, and it is deliberately intended to exist in gaming, if not necessarily by the specific rules which yield such powerful combinations. furthermore, i'll go as far as to postulate that game systems which do not provide such options are actually less capable and less well designed.

for an example, i'll take hitting someone over the head. all humans have that weak point, and it is difficult and rare for someone to train sufficient to cover that weakness. as such, even a weak (low level) person can potentially take out a strong (high level) person if the circumstances are right. quite a few historical, literary, and media examples use this exact idea (or a variant of it) as a major plot point. It goes back as far as several thousand years to the babylonian and sumerian cultures, at the least.

despite this well documented fact, most game systems do not have a mechanic which accurately represents this weakness... or rather, in an attempt to (foolishly?) "level the playing field" and break things down into levels, and hit points, and other representational artifacts intended to speed up game play - this simple possibility is overlooked and removed from existence in most games. on the other hand, because of the (poor?) rules design, other loopholes are opened which, when abused by immature gamers of whatever given age/experience/mastery can result in headaches and loss of enjoyment in the course of game play.

***

obviously, there are two approaches to solve it - fix the rules, or fix the people. of the two the first would seem easier, but i think that is really just hacking at the leaves and ignoring the roots. and i'm not saying that all games should be super-realistic, nor am i saying that such poor design is excusable because they overlooked something else, somewhere else, like the weakness i pointed out before. then again, trying to fix the people is hard... very hard. and only works if they recognize that there is a problem, and are willing and desire to change in and of themselves....


i get the feeling that putting the blame on the rules/designers, is a form of not taking responsibility on the part of people who misuse and abuse, and a frustrated response on the part of those who are more mature and trying to deal with those who are not.

in any case, when one cannot rely upon the maturity and cooperation of all the players (DM/GM included), that does inherently contain the potential for problems.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Rocket launcher tag, action multiplication, and all that
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2014, 03:01:03 PM »
Just chiming in here to agree with Unbeliever, and provide some historical background for the terms being thrown around (which I'm old enough to do...):

Rocket Tag, I think, originated with the game Doom, where you could fight "deathmatches" with rocket launchers (which would kill you if you were even anywhere near the place where the rocket landed). I remember using the term over 20 years ago in reference to that game, in any case.

The escalation of getting bigger and bigger "guns" to keep up with the "competition" is called an Arms Race, after the arms race between the USSR and USA during the Cold War (and maybe before that... I'm not a historian).
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Offline nijineko

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Re: Rocket launcher tag, action multiplication, and all that
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2014, 04:25:17 PM »
well it appears that my definition is in the wrong, or perhaps it was a simultaneous/separate evolution of terminology. in any case, i can see how rocket tag applies to both concepts. thank you for the clarification. i've been playing games long before doom (i think my first computer game played was in the early 80's... 83-84 iirc), but i did not like the premise of that series, so i've never actually played it. perhaps why i missed the term in that context. ^^

so now that we've clarified the one-shot-one-kill concept as the true focus up for discussion, i'll refer back to my post before this one, as there are some possibly salient points therein.

Offline veekie

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Re: Rocket launcher tag, action multiplication, and all that
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2014, 04:00:22 AM »

again, that simply proves my point even more. the DM PICKS (ie: human choice) a monster which is too powerful... a PLAYER PICKS (unknowing or not, that's a human choice, and if a GM can't adapt and adjust to an accidental one-shot of an encounter without rocket tag, again that's the DM's fault-and maybe they need to study things out a bit more before DMing again)... common sense improvements = PLAYER CHOICE, and the response to it is GM CHOICE...

in other words, it all boils down to what people decide to do... period. the rules of the game are irrelevant.

I have a player who runs a character designed by our group's uber-munchkin. her monk outputs something like 100+hp per hit... yes, that's per individual strike, averaging 500-600 damage per round. I have no problems working with this character in encounters, nor do I have any problems challenging this character, nor have I had any difficulty in reminding this character that doing enough damage to realistically punch through walls doesn't mean that they are still vulnerable to the occasional thing. My group has anywhere from 4-7 characters depending on player attendance.

We have never gotten into rocket tag with these characters, and my average party level is now 19. We don't ever rocket tag because everyone in the group makes intelligent choices. As for my part as DM, I've managed to foil extremely high level abilities (and only on occasion, 'cause it's no fun for the players if they can't enjoy their toys and abilities) with very low level effects, ranging from 2nd to 6th level in power. Despite my "let-the-players-enjoy-powers-n-toys" approach, they still find themselves challenged by my encounters.

If I am not mistaken, rocket tag, by definition, is the continuing escalation of power levels and or reprisals by the players vs dm? a one-shot or occasional accident don't really qualify. I feel that rocket tag is the lawful-stupid alignment/play style of players and dms alike.

Try playing smarter instead, and no one will ever get into rocket tag. Of course, that only works if EVERYONE is on board with playing smarter... not a guarantee, belike.
The root issue is that using the system without time investment leads to rocket tag, more or less naturally. You have to expend focus and attention towards accounting for diverging capabilities. You need ease of play, something where you can pick up any monster or character, based on simple determinants like CR/Level and have them be comparable in play. It might be better of the system was more honest about the metrics, but the system claims that CR and level describe comparability, when they are only vague indicators.

It's not a choice TO rocket tag, it takes choice, collaboration and skill to avoid it happening. Achieving rocket tag is a simple action with a clearly defined goal, maximum kill. Preventing rocket tag is a complex event requiring high awareness and knowledge.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 04:07:24 AM by veekie »
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Rocket launcher tag, action multiplication, and all that
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2014, 08:20:45 PM »
Here is the main counter-argument against ignoring defense and going for offense: You only have one PC. When it dies, it sucks. The DM has endless NPCs he doesn't give a crap how many you kill. In fact, that's the whole point.

And no matter how much of an offensive powerhouse you are, you're never going be so lethal that you never "get hit" (includes failing saves, etc). And if you get hit, you're occasionally going to get hit really hard (critted or fail a critical saving throw). If you totally ignore defenses, eventually this is going to mean your character dies.

So basically, the DM always wins rocket tag, through attrition. You're a fool to ignore defenses. You need to at least have a way to reroll saving throws (or substitute concentration checks, etc), shrug off horribly debilitating effects, and bring back your dead. Otherwise, you're asking for a dead PC and maybe a TPK (sometimes once a PC goes down, it can turn the whole momentum against the party).
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Rocket launcher tag, action multiplication, and all that
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2014, 02:03:47 PM »
Glad to have helped clear things up a little bit.  For the record, I'm not wedded to the terminology -- Ninjineko presents a cogent explanation behind what he was meaning -- but like Phaedrusxy indicated I was trying to describe the way the terms are commonly used. 

And, Veekie makes the same point I was angling for.  I think a certain, fairly high, amount of rocket tag is baked into the system.  Recognizing its baked-in-edness (yeah, totally, that's a word) is useful so that you can sidestep it if you so choose.  Or,  probably more commonly, you can take the appropriate steps to avoid it wrecking your game.  For instance, high level D&D adventures seem to assume as a matter of course that you'll have multiple save reroll abilities, various forms of condition removal, and include "death" as one of those conditions, as evidenced by the mountain of save-or-die/save-or-suck ability that high-level foes can toss around willy-nilly.

I tend to agree that good gamers will adjust accordingly.  I've mostly learned it by trial and error, so it's really a question of using forums like these to leverage the conventional wisdom.  Kind of along the "fix the rules or fix the players?" type of discussion, I think the idea is to point out the potential pitfalls.  Save-or-die effects can landmines just lying there that can derail a game.  For instance, my wife is a good and experienced gamer.  But, she wouldn't automatically know that if she uses a CR-appropriate Beholder against a given party she might wreck the game entirely b/c it turns the wrong party member to stone.  As a thoughtful party member, I can make sure that I have some rerolls or something available. 

I also don't necessarily decry the existence of glass cannons.  Ideally, a system should support as wide a variety of builds as it can.  There's nothing wrong to someone playing a glass cannon, inherently.  It's got its strengths and its weaknesses.  For instance, I can easily imagine a very cool party set up to guard the glass cannon while he demolishes foes.  It'd be when there isn't anything meaningful to the "glass" part of the build, even by a relative measure, that things would get bad.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Rocket launcher tag, action multiplication, and all that
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2014, 02:25:10 PM »
you know, interestingly enough, your points cover pretty much why i joined these forums in the first place. i needed a place where i could go to get the details on the insane shenanigans that were possible to a given system (in my case at the time: d&d), so that i could learn the rules and interpretations they were based on, and form my own opinions and methods of working with, and when necessary being able to counter, the various possibilities. i'm a big fan of "rule-of-yes" and knowing that was the case, and that i allow all official material in my games, that's a lot of yes to have to work with. ^^

i think it was worthwhile and successful as well. my 19th level game is going quite smoothly, as previously described in part in earlier posts.

information is power, and being aware of the possibilities allowed me to be prepared, and not ever caught by surprise with regards to rules specific issues. also, it enabled me to develop ways to challenge such builds without resorting to arms race or rocket tag or disallowing reams of stuff. there are a few books i don't allow due to excessive alignment-ism.

so, a big shout-out-thanks to bg/mmb. you've made my gaming better. =D