Author Topic: Sean K Reynolds comes out in favor of reality-bending abilities for martials  (Read 9122 times)

Offline Unbeliever

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Actually I kind of suspect that this may have something to do with the new Advanced Class Guide. He's prepping us for things the Swashbuckler, Brawler, or Slayer will be able to do. Heck, this may be the actual cause of Crane Style nerf - if crane style builds step on theoretical space occupied by the swashbuckler or brawler they may have decided it needed to go.
So, power creep is an official editing/writing policy at Paizo? 

Offline Frogman55

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Actually I kind of suspect that this may have something to do with the new Advanced Class Guide. He's prepping us for things the Swashbuckler, Brawler, or Slayer will be able to do. Heck, this may be the actual cause of Crane Style nerf - if crane style builds step on theoretical space occupied by the swashbuckler or brawler they may have decided it needed to go.
So, power creep is an official editing/writing policy at Paizo?
Well, aside from the fact that power creep is an official technique with any game that relies on multiple updates and new product, power creep isn't really my point.

My point was that there will probably be martial classes that can do magical stuff in the new book. SKR's point was that level appropriate = level appropriate, and that is all that should matter from a design perspective. If a martial class gets a freedom of movement ability at level 7, usable once a day, then that shouldn't be a real problem; if clerics, druids, and alchemists get it at level 7, then why not a rogue or monk? What I was implying there is that we're may be seeing martial classes getting a few things that used to be only available through spells, and he wants to prepare the 'fighters can't have nice things' crowd for this.

The other point (regarding Crane Style) is the idea that it wasn't nerfed because it was OP, but because a similar mechanic is going to be the signature ability of the swashbuckler, and they didn't want other builds able to mimic it through feats. Just because level appropriate is the goal, rather than pure mechanics, doesn't mean that we want to start letting wizards channel energy like a cleric - that's what a cleric does special, after all. We also don't want monks to start parrying like swashbucklers, too.

Offline Unbeliever

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If an ability isn't OP, then from an effects-based approach, there's no reason to nerf it.  What I'm trying to say is that mechanical niche protection makes little sense in the effects-based world that SKR's post is pushing in the post that motivated this thread.  That's not to disagree with Frogman55's description of events; he's much more informed in the evolution than I am.  I'm just saying that would be a bad approach and inconsistent with what SKR is pushing in this post. 

On the one hand, you have SKR saying level appropriate is level appropriate.  A fairly extensive argument that the raw ability, its firepower, game effect, etc. is what matters.  But, then we have to layer onto that the idea that some mechanics are also a class' particular bailiwick.  So, channeling energy is the Cleric's deal, Crane Style (full disclosure, I have no idea what this ability does or did, I assume it's a kind of parry effect) is the Swashbuckler's, and so on.

The problem is how do you marry that to the effects-based approach?  Or, put more pointedly, why is Freedom of Movement and Teleport and Dispel Magic on the table and "open" to other classes, but Channeling Energy or Parrying/Dodge effects isn't? 

I'll readily concede that thematic limitations are the important thing.  A huge thing, actually.  But, I don't see an intelligible design principle here.  Once you've classified teleporting as rogue-y and dispel magic as fighter-y, everything is pretty much up for grabs. 

As a side note, it seems unlikely to me that, however you divide the thematic space, that "parrying" or "dodging" would be the bailiwick of one particular class.  Or, that kung-fu masters or whatever Monks are supposed to be wouldn't have access to it.  I also don't like Paizo's desire to silo abilities in various classes, essentially abandoning 3E's approach to multiclassing, but that's a personal preference. 

Offline Frogman55

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Yeah. I don't really know what precisely is going on in the deliberation process, Crane Style was a feat chain that used to let you auto-negate an attack, and eventually get an AoO afterwards. Now you only get an AC bonus and have to declare it ahead of time.

It's not clear whether it got nerfed because it was stepping on design space, or whether it got nerfed because of OP combo potential with the swashbuckler is still up for debate.

Either way, my suspicion is that things won't change over at Paizo. Accepting that magical effects don't have to be magical isn't going to change the underlying problems; so long as there are sacred cows (whether that is channeling, parrying, or what) then I doubt there will be any real difference.

Don't get me wrong, I hope that this post indicates SKR is abandoning some of his preconceptions, but I'm not holding my breath. This is one sacred cow out of a whole herd of them.

Offline Agita

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I hope it is an actual change of heart. Part of me worries that this is one of those hypothetical ideals that won't ever bear out in practice. "Sure, a fighter learning to reflect spells with his shield is great! Of course, he shouldn't be able to do that to rays, or area spells, or anything that does ability damage, or causes a condition, or does force damage, or any sort of energy damage." After all, the Crane Style nerf wasn't all that long ago.
Keep in mind SKR doesn't work for Paizo anymore. That's likely why this got posted now in the first place. I wouldn't get my hopes up for this signifying a change of direction in Pathfinder design or development.
Please send private messages regarding board matters to Forum Staff instead.

Offline Frogman55

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I hope it is an actual change of heart. Part of me worries that this is one of those hypothetical ideals that won't ever bear out in practice. "Sure, a fighter learning to reflect spells with his shield is great! Of course, he shouldn't be able to do that to rays, or area spells, or anything that does ability damage, or causes a condition, or does force damage, or any sort of energy damage." After all, the Crane Style nerf wasn't all that long ago.
Keep in mind SKR doesn't work for Paizo anymore. That's likely why this got posted now in the first place. I wouldn't get my hopes up for this signifying a change of direction in Pathfinder design or development.
Seriously? How did I miss that. Usually I'm pretty up to date on Paizo stuff, as my RL games are all Pathfinder Society. That just makes me sad.

Offline wotmaniac

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His rant is meaningless.
Besides being obsessed with AMF, he doesn't seem to "get it" about the idea that everything above 6th level is definitionally not mundane.  Once he gets over that hurdle, then he might actually start making meaningful progress.  And then he has the sisyphean task of leading a concerted effort to get all the grognards to get on board as well.