Author Topic: [3.P] Summoner is tier 2 or 3?  (Read 14991 times)

Offline TuggyNE

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Re: [3.P] Summoner is tier 2 or 3?
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2014, 08:16:34 PM »
Plain wrong.  A Druid that buys studded leather barding for their companion is almost certainly going naked themselves.  Leather barding might work, but is only AC 16 total.  A Fighter gets that from Scale mail and a Heavy Shield, which actually only accounts for about a third of his starting gold.  It's likely he can splurge a little and get a Chain Shirt instead, or maybe even break out a Tower Shield for that one point during the campaign it'd actually be useful.  Also note that this is yet another number that is not terribly significant (unless you're using the Tower Shield, in which case shenanigans are afoot).

I don't see why the Druid would be armorless, and since they can usually hang back and cast at this level anyway it doesn't matter as much either. Nor is it reasonable to talk about shields here and two-handed weapons later. No Schrodinger's Fighter, please.

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BAB/Grapple: +1/+4 vs +1/+2. Advantage: Fighter, assuming grappling is a thing that's important.
It isn't, I don't even know why you're bringing this up.

Completeness, of course. I'm happy to accept any concession that theoretical Fighter advantages are irrelevant, though.

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Yes, the Fighter has a massive advantage here, and is even using one of the worst weapons in the game in getting that advantage.

Huh? Since when are greatswords one of the worst weapons in the game? They're tied with falchions for best MWP damage potential at any level, and at level 1 are guaranteed to have the highest. Your hyperbole here unreasonably inflates the Fighter's potential; greatswords are very nearly as good as it ever gets.

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Saves: Fort +5/Ref +2/Will +0 vs Fort +5/Ref +5/Will+1; assuming 14 Dex, 14 Con, and 10 Wis for the Fighter. Advantage: wolf.
For Reflex saves only.  The Wolf is slightly better at taking half damage from Burning Hands, yay.

And an extra +1 on Will saves.

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Abilities: If the wolf can rearrange these scores with an array, rolled scores, or point buy most of these entries become more favorable for it.
The wolf has 13 Strength, 15 Dexterity, 15 Constitution, and generally terrible mental scores, and I have yet to see a DM anywhere allow his players to roll scores for their animal companions.

OK, cool, arguments from experience won't go anywhere here, because it'd just be two players comparing their respective tiny pools of anecdotes.

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Skills: Usually 4 skill points and a terrible list vs 5 skill points and a terrible list with a racial bonus to something irrelevant. Sometimes the Fighter has 13 Int for CE, in which case this goes up to 6 vs 5. Advantage: ???
A Fighter with 13 Int has 12 skill points.  Personally, I don't see the point in stopping at 13 Int when 14 Int gives you another skill, and you can always expand your class skill list in various ways like the Apprentice feat.

Hrm, you're right, my math was completely bogus here. Not sure how that happened.  :???

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Origin: PC vs 24-hour cost-free ritual. Advantage: wolf.
You get what you pay for.  Advantage: Fighter.

That doesn't make sense. This wasn't an overall summary, but another line item, and there is no way you can argue that the Fighter is superior in this area. Which is good, because you didn't, just kind of asserted it for no particular reason.

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EDIT: Oh, also, this is a Fighter.  Imagine if I had said an even better low-tier fighty class like a Barbarian, Ranger, or Duskblade.  The point is, every class has their time to shine (except CW Samurai), and for mundane classes that time tends to be in the early levels before exponential-progression spellcasting out-paces their linear-progression attack bonuses and skill checks.

To the extent that any mundane class has a chance to shine, that chance is in early levels. I am not convinced that Fighters specifically ever get that chance.
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Offline X-Codes

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Re: [3.P] Summoner is tier 2 or 3?
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2014, 12:44:27 AM »
I don't see why the Druid would be armorless, and since they can usually hang back and cast at this level anyway it doesn't matter as much either. Nor is it reasonable to talk about shields here and two-handed weapons later. No Schrodinger's Fighter, please.
1) Druids start with 2d4 x 10 gold, average 50 max 80.  Studded barding is 50, a spell component pouch is 5, and hide armor is 15.  Thats about a 19% chance to buy these three items and nothing else, leaving you with a club, sling, and rocks for fighting with.
2) Druids have 2 first level spells at first level.  Hanging back and casting at this point is basically contributing nothing to the fight.
3) I didn't realize the Light Flail was a two-handed weapon.  Oh, wait...

Huh? Since when are greatswords one of the worst weapons in the game? They're tied with falchions for best MWP damage potential at any level, and at level 1 are guaranteed to have the highest. Your hyperbole here unreasonably inflates the Fighter's potential; greatswords are very nearly as good as it ever gets.
Neither the 4 HP kobold nor the 5 HP goblin cares about whether your average damage per hit is 7.5 with a light flail (8.5 two-handed), 9 with a guisarme, or 11 with a greatsword.  Likewise, later on they won't care about the extra 2-4 points of damage you get from using a Greatsword over something else, depending on how your charge multipliers work out.  It is notable, however, that the Greatsword lacks both reach and the ability to trip, two things that are far more valuable than 2 points of damage at any level.

And an extra +1 on Will saves.
Assuming 10 Wisdom and no feats boosting Will saves, or even abilities just giving outright immunity to certain effects like Elves being immune to Sleep and having a +2 against everything else in the Enchantment school.

OK, cool, arguments from experience won't go anywhere here, because it'd just be two players comparing their respective tiny pools of anecdotes.
The rules actually state that you start with the base creature's block and then lists an exhaustive set of changes you can make to said block.  A wolf AC starting with anything other than 13 Strength, 15 Dexterity, 15 Constitution, 2 Intelligence, 12 Wisdom, and 6 Charisma is a houserule.

To the extent that any mundane class has a chance to shine, that chance is in early levels. I am not convinced that Fighters specifically ever get that chance.
Well, that's your problem.

Offline TuggyNE

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Re: [3.P] Summoner is tier 2 or 3?
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2014, 08:36:02 PM »
I don't see why the Druid would be armorless, and since they can usually hang back and cast at this level anyway it doesn't matter as much either. Nor is it reasonable to talk about shields here and two-handed weapons later. No Schrodinger's Fighter, please.
1) Druids start with 2d4 x 10 gold, average 50 max 80.  Studded barding is 50, a spell component pouch is 5, and hide armor is 15.  Thats about a 19% chance to buy these three items and nothing else, leaving you with a club, sling, and rocks for fighting with.

Wow, can't believe I forgot the multiplier for barding. Bah. I guess it'd have to be regular leather then, which lessens that advantage to basically nil.

Given that, though, I think I'm going to stop before I make any more weird random mistakes that I should know better about.  :huh
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Offline lans

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Re: [3.P] Summoner is tier 2 or 3?
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2014, 07:42:50 AM »
Fighters get the use ranged weapons in their favor.