What if we took dragons off their pedestals?

[betrayor]

Challenge Ratings: Wyrmling 2; very young 4; young 4; juvenile 5; young adult 7; adult 8; mature adult 11; old 12; very old 13; ancient 15; wyrm 16; great wyrm 18.

Treasure: Wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, young adult: standard; adult, mature adult, old: double standard; very old, ancient, wyrm, great wyrm: triple standard.

Not sure where you are getting that from, my copy of dragons of faerun has the aforementioned triple standard.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a

This article is from 2004.....
Dragons of Faerun is from 2006,so Dragons of Faerun are the correct and updated version.....
I don't see the problem with triple standard,it means that the dragon has treasure as an Npc of its CR.........

[Tiltowait]

I thought that the article came second. It was what came up when I Googled for Steel Dragons in order to respond to him. In any case triple standard still comes well short of being able to afford many of the things he mentioned. Valorous is impossible as even if you can put it on natural weapons without any form of markup it's still about 200% of its wealth by itself. It can get some useful buffing items but nothing game changing, so even accounting for the fact this particular age category of this particular dragon is the Adamantine Clockwork Horror of its kind it's still not some better than your entire party at once and will kill everyone monstrosity.

So even if it isn't one of those odd true dragons that does not get triple standard wealth it is still unable to do the things that he has claimed it can do.

Here's a recap of the different possible scenarios:

Level 4 party vs first dragon mentioned, assuming the absolute worst case scenario possible.

Surprise round: Dragon catches two people with a line entangling maximize breath, and those two are the lowest HP PCs and both of them fail the DC 13 save and take 3 damage now and 6 damage a round for the next 4 rounds. That means the Wizard goes down to 16/19 and the Rogue goes down to 21/24.

Round 1: Party kills dragon, as it isn't hard for a level 4 party to do 31 damage to an AC 18 target in one round. Wizard drops to 10/19 HP, Rogue to 15/24.

Rounds 2-4: Cleric uses a charge from a CLW wand on Wizard, rolls minimum healing, both take 6 damage a round. Entangling breath ends after 3 wand charges with the Wizard at -2 and the Rogue at -3.

5 Lesser Vigor charges get them up and active again. Total resources: 8 wand charges for 120 gold, far less than you get back, and the party can handle many such encounters and be in no real danger from them.

Sure it's a CR 2, but the CR 4 versions are not significantly better at the breath weapon approach as the only thing they gain is a 6 or 9 point initial breath instead of 3, which even in the worst case scenario still does not kill anyone. The main thing the dragon does gain is the ability to take some hits, but not to the point of surviving 4-7 rounds to get off a second breath.

A melee approach would work better but still not well - since it isn't at least size Large its damage is lacking and the things that would help with that are either inapplicable or unavailable until later when it would be of a higher size category anyways. Doing that though cuts its mobility down to nothing as it does not have and cannot get Pounce at this point whereas the party would only have one attack anyways, or in the case of the Barbarian have two attacks and Pounce so he can use both of them. Most of the things that seem like they'd help don't actually work that way - Blades of Flame is capped to two weapons, having sneak attack doesn't mean your targets are vulnerable to it and the dragon does not get a feat at 10 HD so it can't take Assassin's Stance anyways which renders the point moot.

Once you do get into Large sized dragons on up you have a nasty critter that can buff up and go slay things but the younger dragons aren't that big of a deal.

[SneeR]

Flight makes a CR 4's life difficult.

[SorO_Lost]

Spellchecker in FF is a bitch, more text in the post the longer it takes to check one word. So have a boiled down post.

1. You started an argument about something no one was talking about.
Your rebuttal to my post on CR being was about it killing a party.

2. Set in correct standards and all or nothing.
IE, kills the party (CR 7+) or doesn't (it may or may not be CR 2 or 4 or 30, bitching is the only goal here).

3. Your posts are chalk full of ignorance
Time and time again I've remarked the Dragon doesn't have to be better than the optimized AFC using Templated Barbarian twice it's level. It's CR 2, the fact you even desire to compare it to such is to already admit that the dragon's CR should be 4. Love the example CR 9 being called over powered even if it probably loses to the CR 8 Steel dragon (35% chance of implosion working before items, disintegrate can be ignored easily, leaves disjunction and duking it out but guess who deals more in that area before items or buffs).

4. Use large assumptions.
the topic we're talking about, your all or nothing, measuring the Barbarian's AFC granted two attacks on a land based target vs the damage output of a single standard action and move away, you're scenario of fuck it dragon dies, calling one spell that also serves as a defensive buff (vs web) and utility (makes fire) dedication to melee, it never uses it's wings the list goes on.

5. Are fundamentally biaist as hell.
Using your tactics on suggestions and no retarded handicaps for the party the dragon's odd favor making it to round two but even with surprise and superior initiative you hand wave it into only have a single standard action before auto death. Ever since you started posting here it's always been Barbarian this and Barbarian that. All the things listed before this as well.

6. You require multiple people to tell you your wrong, and you insult everyone up until then.
You've had at least three people correct you on wealth each of which you've shot down, you've had two and links on Young is CR 4 and still claim it's incorrect and needs to be ignored (you know that into it's self is in agreeance with my point on CRs being to low), the scenarios, me not wanting to bate into your dragon must BEAT the party, and other bullshit.

7. I'm bored.
Dragons are under CRed. None of your posts have proven they are not (in fact, we're discussion one and only one dragon to start with here anyway) and can be cited as proof the Steel Wyrmling is better suited as CR 4. You've admitted that later on they become power houses and are willing to house rule a Young Steel to having a higher CR. I accept your resignation.

[littha]

Dragons of Faerun was printed 2 years after that article.

Edit: managed to miss a whole page of posts... what i get for leaving the page open for like 12 hours...

[Tiltowait]

Flight makes a CR 4's life difficult.

Flight is actually less of a problem at lower levels than it is at higher levels. This is because the difference between non specialized ranged attacks and specialized ranged special attacks is a lot smaller, so the melee characters are losing less of their ability to fight back.

At higher levels flight magic is more readily available but dragons still fly faster and the ranged attacks of non specialists are hopeless.

Unfortunately SorO is more interested in measuring his penis than having a discussion which is why he continually misses the point entirely.

The CR 4 10 HD dragon is an example of a single enemy that is under CRed in a manner that is very obvious to any observer. The Adamantine Clockwork Horror is also a single enemy that is clearly under CRed. SorO's argument is that because that single age category of a single dragon exists, all dragons are under CRed. By the same logic so are all constructs. They clearly aren't though as one enemy having odd stats does not mean everything that shares the same creature type also does!

I've stated that things with low defensive stats would die quickly. I consider that to be obvious.

I haven't insulted anyone, and I haven't fed into your attempts to bait me into a dick measuring contest. As for the wealth, that misunderstanding has already been straightened out and you are still wrong as level 4 NPC wealth or even level 4 PC wealth cannot afford the things you say it can. As long as we're on the subject of pointing out mistakes though how about assuming a buff applies to 3-5 weapons when it applies to two, or taking a feat that it cannot possibly take and can barely make use of?

I accept you are unwilling to have a productive discussion, but there are others here that are so here is the breakdown of the different dragon types:

Wyrmling dragon does about nothing to the party. Even its best trick consumes a few wand charges and imposes absolutely no real danger. There are plenty of encounters that would impose greater risk, and this one is not a threat at all.

The 7 HD dragon fares a bit better but still lacks the resources to be dangerous, so aside from taking longer to die this plays out the same as the CR 2 dragon.

The 10 HD dragon despite this specific enemy clearly being under CRed due to having the exact same CR as the previous dragon who has lower stats is capable of presenting a threat, but still is not that big of a deal. Either it attempts the same breath technique that it is only slightly better at than the wyrmling and dies within 4-7 rounds so that it cannot do that twice... Or it goes for a melee approach which works a bit better until the party starts keeping ten feet out of its reach, shutting down its full attacks while still able to use their own single attacks or in the case of the strong Barbarian using Pounce can still use a Chronocharm or Sudden Leap or some other such ability to move back after unleashing a charge. The dragon is a bit too low to be able to get access to Pounce itself and because this is lower levels most of the party isn't dependent on full attacks yet so the dragon is at a considerable disadvantage if it goes this route.

And those are the only two things the dragon can do. Its Cha is too low for offensive spells to work, and most of the good offensive spells at this level work better when there is someone there other than you to follow up. The dragon is alone, so it doesn't especially benefit.

[littha]

The adamantine clockwork horror isn't actually as badly under CR'd as people make out, consider that it has no solo encounter entry and thus must be accompanied by a whole load of other horrors that bump the encounter CR up considerably. People tend to ignore the Organisation line in its stat block.

The steel dragon also has an interesting organisation line, the CR  2 and both CR 4 versions is Solitary (with humanoid companions) or Clutch (2-5). Depending on what exactly the humanoid companions are the CR of the encounter could vary wildly.

Also the dragon is perfectly capable of using those no SR no save spells you were recommending earlier with its low Cha

[SorO_Lost]

The adamantine clockwork horror isn't actually as badly under CR'd as people make out, consider that it has no solo encounter entry and thus must be accompanied by a whole load of other horrors that bump the encounter CR up considerably. People tend to ignore the Organisation line in its stat block.

The steel dragon also has an interesting organisation line, the CR  2 and both CR 4 versions is Solitary (with humanoid companions) or Clutch (2-5). Depending on what exactly the humanoid companions are the CR of the encounter could vary wildly.

Also the dragon is perfectly capable of using those no SR no save spells you were recommending earlier with its low Cha

Mostly because those are more EL than CR. What makes the Horror strong is the fact is has two 9th level spells, Disjunction and Implosion. Both are DC 24 and Implosion isn't a death effect and so no real immunity outside of LOE/LOS breaks and Saves exist.

As for a good choice on no SR/Save it would use Power Word Pain rather then having to specifically apply Loredrake to access Web/Glitterdust making it a more generic choice. Unless the Barbarian we keep hearing about it Raging (and has taken no damage) no practical level 4 player can ignore it and the damage will tick over time dealing an average 35 per casting making it a more limited use Breath-like choice and require the person to move to asking to be healed over the next few rounds.

In fact this one spell can pose a huge problem. Eight charges worth of healing was cited to deal with the 33 damage from breath. So the 35 more damage should mean around 16 charges. To put things into prospective, the rate of 16 per one eighth of your encounters comes out to an equivalent 128 charges per day or two and a half wands. A Rogue could use a Wand of Wraithstrike twice at each encounter and that one wand almost lasts two levels worth of adventuring. It may not be "daily" resources since it could take you a week (or month) to get back to a city, but the rate of consumption is so high the DM is required to make an adjustment to his encounter table just to avoid over taxing you before he shoves some emergency healing item replacements in as treasure.

[littha]

Mostly because those are more EL than CR. What makes the Horror strong is the fact is has two 9th level spells, Disjunction and Implosion. Both are DC 24 and Implosion isn't a death effect and so no real immunity outside of LOE/LOS breaks and Saves exist.

Oh I get that makes it strong, people make a big deal out of it being CR 9 but invariably fail to take into account that they don't travel alone.

Minimum CR encounter for you to fight adamantine Horror has to be worked out using its organisation:
Assembly (1 plus 1-2 platinum horrors, 3-4 gold horrors and 5-20 electrum horrors). Minimum of 10 creatures at once

Which I believe makes it a viable encounter for a level 14-15 party?

[SorO_Lost]

Oh I get that makes it strong, people make a big deal out of it being CR 9 but invariably fail to take into account that they don't travel alone.

Minimum CR encounter for you to fight adamantine Horror has to be worked out using its organisation:
Assembly (1 plus 1-2 platinum horrors, 3-4 gold horrors and 5-20 electrum horrors). Minimum of 10 creatures at once

Which I believe makes it a viable encounter for a level 14-15 party?

Oh I see what you mean.

[Tiltowait]

The adamantine clockwork horror isn't actually as badly under CR'd as people make out, consider that it has no solo encounter entry and thus must be accompanied by a whole load of other horrors that bump the encounter CR up considerably. People tend to ignore the Organisation line in its stat block.

CR and ECL are not the same thing. Either way the point is that a single creature that happens to be of type x says nothing about the power of type x. To demonstrate that it is type x that is too strong, you would need to show a consistent trend of many different dragon types of different age categories being incredibly strong. I've already saved you the trouble though. What you'd find is the low level dragons are consistently very weak, as even the Steel who is one of the strongest types just doesn't measure up well at low levels. At mid and high levels they get better but are still not too good.

Also the dragon is perfectly capable of using those no SR no save spells you were recommending earlier with its low Cha

I haven't mentioned no save no SR spells. I have mentioned no SR spells. Those wouldn't give the dragon any special advantage though as it is extremely unlikely the party has any SR to ignore.

As for the dragon casting Power Word Pain, there are multiple problems with this:

First it has to live another round. The lower level dragons will not do this.

Second it would have to be the worst case scenario for the party to care. Otherwise healing won't always restore the minimum possible value, there will be more than one person capable of using a wand, and it is easy to live through.

Third the Power Word Pain encounter is done better by a small number of casters who would have more chances to get off more Power Word Pains. The dragon being only a single creature is not an effective user of that tactic.

That approach doesn't work very well regardless though as it doesn't do damage quickly enough to make a difference.

[Halinn]

For arguments sake, assume the CR 4 steel dragon, 7 HD version. How is a regular level 4 group taking it down at range, given that it has no incentive to land.
For feats, assume the two aforementioned metabreaths and flyby attack. SR 28 against 1st and 2nd level spells, 52 hit points, 17 armor.

[littha]

Plus it can cast protection from arrows once it gets to the 10 HD version... which has an hour/level duration and unless the wizard is packing a lot of ranged spells or there is a bow focused character there makes it a lot harder to kill.

[Tiltowait]

Protection from Arrows is defeated by a simple Magic Weapon spell as it is DR/Magic. As many creatures at this level have DR/Magic and actual magic weapons are not entirely practical yet it is a standard spell to carry.

For arguments sake, assume the CR 4 steel dragon, 7 HD version. How is a regular level 4 group taking it down at range, given that it has no incentive to land.
For feats, assume the two aforementioned metabreaths and flyby attack. SR 28 against 1st and 2nd level spells, 52 hit points, 17 armor.

Better question: How is the group not defeating it? They have 4-7 rounds before taking a second breath attack. 52 HP is slightly above average, 17 AC is low. The best spells of this level - Glitterdust and Web entirely ignore spell resistance in addition to their other effects. Because it isn't landing it has no other attacks aside from its 3 damage + 6 damage a round for 4 rounds breath which has a 0% chance to kill anyone.

The worst case scenario is that each person has to do 3.25 damage a round, less if they have more than 4 rounds. Surely a level 4 party can hit at least half as hard as regular orcs?

More realistically they take it down in a round or two.

The dragon is also vulnerable to a rather large array of surprising things. A Tanglefoot Bag will take it right out of the sky, just to name one example.

[veekie]

Whichever the measure though, dragons still remain apparently, more strongly multithreat than other creatures of their purported CR. Where most creatures are strong in one area and mediocre in others, the dragon can melee, act as a caster, tank with the best of them and generally be overall superior.

Whether they can be beaten or not by a party isn't really a factor here, they can be, but they are not generally speaking, their stated CR.

[Halinn]

Stuff

Because of flyby attack, it won't be in the zone where things become deadly to it except for the brief interval in which is does the breath.
Glitterdust does not force it down, and neither does web. This means that it can fly upwards in the case of glitterdust, or just avoid areas prone to a web spell.
Tanglefoot bags have a 10 ft. range increment, making them likely to miss.

And I remain unconvinced that the group can do the damage you say, at range. You specified already that the wizard is not casting damaging spells. Sneak attack damage won't happen, because the dragon won't be flat-footed when it flies by for breathing, which leaves regular archery, which is not exactly famous for doing massive amounts of damage at low levels.

[Tiltowait]

Whichever the measure though, dragons still remain apparently, more strongly multithreat than other creatures of their purported CR. Where most creatures are strong in one area and mediocre in others, the dragon can melee, act as a caster, tank with the best of them and generally be overall superior.

Whether they can be beaten or not by a party isn't really a factor here, they can be, but they are not generally speaking, their stated CR.

They do not have more actions than anyone else though. At best the dragon can buff before going into melee. And that is something that works rather well... if you have the better buffs that come with older ages of dragon. The low level dragons instead do a bunch of things poorly. Either they breathe for low damage, melee for low damage, or throw a few weak buffs on themselves. They also are not tanking anything as their stats are too low.

How easy they are to beat is a factor of CR. A bigger factor though is to ask what threat do they pose along the way? Most creatures have a chance of killing someone. It's not a very good chance, and if it is only an equal level encounter it shouldn't be a very good chance but it is a chance.

An Ogre two hit KOs any member of the level 4 party except the Barbarian who takes three. Despite being one level lower it poses a threat because there is a non zero chance it either gets two turns or one critical hit and therefore kills someone. Not a very high chance, as it will most likely get off 0 or 1 attacks and then die and it is unlikely that the one potential hit will be a critical hit given that it only threatens those on a natural 20, but it is possible.

The dragon is mathematically incapable of killing someone. Even if you did absolutely nothing to recover from the breath it would at worst take someone to -8. It cannot pose a threat. If anything that would demonstrate dragons are over CRed, but what it really illustrates is that low level dragons are weak, as the mid and high level versions do not have trouble posing a threat.

Stuff

Because of flyby attack, it won't be in the zone where things become deadly to it except for the brief interval in which is does the breath.

Flyby attack does not help it here. It has to come within 40 feet to hit anything with its breath and then its movement is divided before and after the breath. It's well within range, and there likely are not even any range penalties.

Glitterdust does not force it down, and neither does web. This means that it can fly upwards in the case of glitterdust, or just avoid areas prone to a web spell.
Tanglefoot bags have a 10 ft. range increment, making them likely to miss.

Glitterdust blinds it, which in turn halves its movement. Combined with minimum forward speed rules a blind dragon is an easily killed dragon. Web can catch it as it's flying away unless it's a wide open field in which case it would have never gotten this close without being seen.

Tanglefoot Bags only need to hit touch AC. Even with range penalties that is quite likely.

And I remain unconvinced that the group can do the damage you say, at range. You specified already that the wizard is not casting damaging spells. Sneak attack damage won't happen, because the dragon won't be flat-footed when it flies by for breathing, which leaves regular archery, which is not exactly famous for doing massive amounts of damage at low levels.

I specified that the Wizard was not playing Warmage. Even so, the dragon has 52 HP. You have an entire party and a minimum of 4 rounds, so even if you are only averaging damage equal to your character level per person per round, that is enough to take down the dragon with some to spare. If you don't see how a party can do damage averaging equal to or greater than their character level I'm afraid I can't help you and I certainly cannot help them as they have far worse problems than dragons.

The Barbarian alone is tossing two javelins at +10 to hit and 1d6+8 damage each and that is without any sort of buffs on a character that is clearly not ranged focused at all. He has a not insignificant chance of taking out the dragon in 4 rounds by himself.

[Halinn]

Flyby attack does not help it here. It has to come within 40 feet to hit anything with its breath and then its movement is divided before and after the breath. It's well within range, and there likely are not even any range penalties.

It has a movement speed of 150 ft. I'm assuming the standard operating mode will be something like being around 75 ft above ground, fly 40 ft down at an angle to hit one or two with the breath, then spend the remaining ~100 ft. of movement turning and flying up, so you end up around the same distance as you left the group. Use remaining breath cooldown flying high and positioning yourself for next attack.

Glitterdust blinds it, which in turn halves its movement. Combined with minimum forward speed rules a blind dragon is an easily killed dragon.

Minimum forward speed is not static. If its movement is halved, so is the minimum forward.

Tanglefoot Bags only need to hit touch AC. Even with range penalties that is quite likely.

Assuming readied action, and a dragon at three range penalties, a small dex 18 rogue (most likely to have high dexterity) has +2 to hit touch 11. Afterwards the dragon has to fail a DC 15 reflex save with its +5 modifier, which comes in at 27% chance of taking out the dragon. I'll grant that it will win the encounter, should it work, it is another character not dealing damage while the dragon recoups the breath attack.

The Barbarian alone is tossing two javelins at +10 to hit and 1d6+8 damage each and that is without any sort of buffs on a character that is clearly not ranged focused at all. He has a not insignificant chance of taking out the dragon in 4 rounds by himself.

30 ft range increment is at least a -2. Ranged to-hit being based on dexterity is minus more. Other characters will likely deal much less damage, though they might have more dexterity.

[Tiltowait]

The point I was making is that trying to use flyby attack is counterproductive to its goal of staying as far away as possible at it ends a lot closer to the party than it otherwise would. Same for flying upwards, as you do so at reduced speed.

There is nothing anywhere in that section of the rules that indicates minimum forward speed is based on current speed instead of normal speed. Even if that is true, cutting its speed in half still means that it cannot get far away.

A level 4 halfling rogue would have a 70% chance to hit and since he's not going to be doing more than about his character level in damage anyways he might as well try it. He can also take the -2 to hit to TWF with thrown bags for the second chance.

As for the Barbarian, I figured he was a Barbarian 2/Fighter 2 (since there is no reason to take more than 2 levels of Barbarian) with Brutal Throw, Extra Rage and two other feats. Why Brutal Throw? Because it makes him not hopeless against flying enemies. Though even with the greatly reduced to hit he could still likely manage a few damage a round. He'd likely use a bow instead then.

Another thing to consider is that even if the bag doesn't knock the dragon out of the sky it still Entangles it. Among other things that's half movement. With both Entangled and Blinded, it can only stay in the air if it does nothing else and then it isn't going very far.

I don't think all that is necessary though as the dragon has slightly above average HP and a fair bit below average AC for the level so it's not going to hold up to regular attacks for very long. The party would have to get fancy to deal with the 10 HD dragon and its 85 HP/27 AC though. However such a dragon would not be posing a threat based on breath weapon hit and run, nor would it be posing a threat based on being a dragon. It'd be posing a threat because that specific creature is under CRed as it is right next to something of the same CR and lower stats.

[SorO_Lost]

Plus it can cast protection from arrows once it gets to the 10 HD version... which has an hour/level duration and unless the wizard is packing a lot of ranged spells or there is a bow focused character there makes it a lot harder to kill.

Doesn't work on targeted spells but the Steel could do more than that if you really wanted to follow up on that. Go Loredrake, with the two new feats pick up Versatile Caster and Arcane Preparation, and Flaw out for Heighten Spell. Prepare two 3rd level spells as a Heightened to 4th level spell. Runestaffs desire withe a prepared spell or spell slot, well you have a prepared 4th level spell. So convert the spell over to Friendly Fire and any ranged attack made against the dragon reflects back to it's source.

By casting Heroics to pick up proficiency it can just use a bow (+12 to hit), which with coupled with it's superior speed and flight nothing short of target based spells can really effect it. Even the possibility of something with a 40ft fly speed using a Run action just to catch up and try for AoOs is easily shut down with effects like Web, Kelgore's Gravemist, or Entangling Breath.

For arguments sake, assume the CR 4 steel dragon, 7 HD version. How is a regular level 4 group taking it down at range, given that it has no incentive to land.
For feats, assume the two aforementioned metabreaths and flyby attack. SR 28 against 1st and 2nd level spells, 52 hit points, 17 armor.

Honestly even the 7HD version is more of a discussion like mundane vs caster as it pretty much is a full caster (or even better with loredrake) only with full BAB/HP/Saves/Flight/3-Natural-Attacks-Ripe-For-Abuse vs the one-Barb-to-rule-them-all.

Whichever the measure though, dragons still remain apparently, more strongly multithreat than other creatures of their purported CR. Where most creatures are strong in one area and mediocre in others, the dragon can melee, act as a caster, tank with the best of them and generally be overall superior.

Whether they can be beaten or not by a party isn't really a factor here, they can be, but they are not generally speaking, their stated CR.

I agree 100% with this. Halinn, littha, look like they do too and even SneeR chimed in on flight making things difficult. Tiltowait's very specifically built and geared Barbarian fed various buffs, the CC invoked by the Wizard, eight charges of healing and Tanglefoot bag very much serve to demonstrate that even an optimized party would still expend more resources than they should.

Tangent over.

***

To reanswer the question posed. Dragons are exceptionally powerful. The Archtypes do exactly what you think they do, give more power, and playing with them as free for all or not at all is equal to the same thing. Playing them correctly as written is no different than playing with the SpC. They both greatly expand the repertoire of already powerful creatures.