[3.5] Shadowcraft Mage at-will (doesn't work; Ocular Spell Fails to fix)

[Chemus]

Looking over the New Dragonfire Adept HB, it struck me that there's a known way to get invocations to be prepared spells: Nosomatic Chirurgeon (Dragonmarked) + Ocular Spell (LoM). An enterprising DfA (DrM), willing to lose a level to illusionist could possibly get to Shadowcraft Mage (RoS), if the DM allowed non-gnomes a la the adaptation section of ScM. Alternately, said halfling could cocoon-reincarnate to gnome (whisper gnome, of course)(RoS), while still keeping the dragonmark (check the sidebar) but would lose the heal as class skill bonus of glimmerskin halflings. That only means that you'd have to start later, not any less power.

Where's this going, you ask? Here's a build.

Tim, the "Enchanter"

N/N Glimmerskin Halfling(RDr) (Heal always in-class)
30 pt buy: S: 6  D: 16 C: 14 I: 14  W: 14  C: 14

(Illus ACFs: Shadow Shaper for hide as in-class for illusionist, Illusion Mastery for free spell mastery for all illusions learned. UA)

Illus 1/ DfA 1/ScM 3/NosCh 1/ScM +2/Rua 1/MotAO 10

Feats:
1: Spell Focus Illusion, (Wiz 1st, not lost with other bonuses, per UA) Scribe Scroll, (Flaws 1&2) Heighten Spell, Metamagic School Focus (CM)
3: Least Dragonmark of Healing (EBCS)
6: Ocular Spell, (DCFS, FC1) Scribe Scroll ->  Arcane Thesis Inflict Minor Wounds
7: Lesser invocations arrive, (Retrain) MM Sch Foc -> Signature Spell: Silent Image (PGtF)
9: Cooperative Spell (CArc), (DCFS) Ruathar (RoW) 1 -> Earth Sense (RoS)
11: Mage of the Arcane Order 2 (CArc): Invisible Spell (City)
12: Earth Spell (Ros)
15: Arcane Thesis Silent Image
17: Dark Invocations; Retrain Invisible Spell -> Rapid Spell (CDiv)
18: (Open)
19: MotAO 9: Free MM (make it a +1 MM, Deceptive (City), Sculpt (City), Selective(SSouth), or Transdimensional (CDiv) all have merit)

Invocations of note: Least, 3rd, Endure Exposure (lvl 2); Lesser, 6th, Enthralling Voice (lvl 7); Greater don't get higher than 6th; Dark, 8th, Energy Immunity (lvl 17)

At 7th level, the Ocular Inflict spell is a 5th level spell, due to arcane Thesis. Signature spell lets you trade that 5th lvl spell for a Still Silent Silent Image Heightened to 5th, so 4th level Cnj/Evoc at will, every two rounds, taking both your move and standard action each round. At the start of an encounter you can have 2 ready to go, so that you only have to use a full-round action to cast, as with any other spontaneous metamagic; it goes off after your standard and move action, using them up, not the next round, and you can still adjust 5'.

At 9th, the Cooperative Ocular Inflict is 6th, 5th's are in.

At 11th, the Invisible Cooperative Ocular Inflict is 7th, so 6th's are up.

At 12th, Earth spell adds 2 levels, once when you heighten the inflict on your invocation 7th->8th, then again when you heighten your silent image on your inflict 8th->9th. 8ths are here!

At 15th, Arcane Thesis lets you heighten your Still Silent Cooperative Silent image to 9th. Earth Spell pops it up to 10th. No need to use invis on this part, since heighten limits you to 9th. Thank Mystra for earth spell!

At 17th, Retrain the Invisible  Spell to Rapid Spell (+1); you don't need it if you're touching the ground. And if you aren't, you can only emulate 8ths anyway. Rapid Spell means that you load each eye as a standard action, and convert each to a MM'd Silent Img as one as well, so it still takes 2 rounds, but now you can move more.

At 19th, if you kept up the MotAO, you get 1 more MM feat. Make it another +1 one and you're good to go.


There you have it; 9th level Conjurations/Evocations every other round. Forever, if you can stay awake.

[edit] Ocular spells cast into your eyes aren't prepared spells, so this doesn't work. Damn. [/edit]

[Endarire]

Off-hand, how do you fulfill the Shadowcraft Mage's skill requirements?

[Chemus]

Hide is in-class for Illusionist (2+int skp) with the Shadow Shaper ACF, and Bluff is in-class for DfA (4+int skp). With a 14 int, it's kinda tight; concentration loses out til about 5th level or so, in order to get the skills necessary for prereqs.

[Debatra]

So how are you getting the 4th-level Shadow spell by second level? Also, since you seem to be putting all the PrC advancement into DFA, how do you qualify for MotAA since you traded out MSF?

While I'm not entirely sure spells stored in your eyes can be swapped with Signature Spell, I'm willing to let it go for this debate.

How does adding Cooperative and/or Invisible Spell do anything?

Why Ruathar, or is that just an open spot you couldn't think of anything else for?

Arcane Thesis explicitly doesn't work with Heighten Spell.

[Chemus]

So how are you getting the 4th-level Shadow spell by second level?

Metamagic school focus allows you to reduce metamagic costs by 1, 3x per day, and the spell Net of Shadows is a 1st level shadow spell. Heighten it to 4th by using all three uses of MSF on it, and you have a 4th level shadow spell.

(click to show/hide)

Your wizard level lets you cast 3 illusion spells, NoS, Sil Image, Ghost Sound. It also, due to the Shadow Shaper ACF from UA, gets Hide as a class skill, so you can put 4 ranks in at 1st. Take Spell Focus Illusion (prereq), and at 2nd level, Bluff is a class skill for DfA, and they get 4+int per level; so put 4 ranks in bluff. Take ScM 1 at 3rd. (Sorry for the verbosity, just preemptively making a full explanation of the early entry, since you're the 2nd to ask in as many responses.)

Also, since you seem to be putting all the PrC advancement into DFA, how do you qualify for MotAA since you traded out MSF?

The Pestilential Touch ability of the Nosomatic Chirurgeon lets you give up a spell or an SLA usage to cast any cure or inflict spell of the same level or lower. This has been considered by many to be arcane, and therefore qualifies for 'able to cast spells of X level' where X is the highest level SLA you have available. I'm contending that the ocular spells are prepared, qualifying you for things requiring prepared casting.

MotAA actually was only taken for the bonus MM feats; spellpool is nigh worthless to this character.

Magelord would be much harder to get to, but adds lots of signature spellyness to the character. The feat tax is very high though. Evasion can be had from the Shadow Creature template in MoP.

While I'm not entirely sure spells stored in your eyes can be swapped with Signature Spell, I'm willing to let it go for this debate.

Yeah, that's the crux of the whole thing.

How does adding Cooperative and/or Invisible Spell do anything?

Arcane Thesis (Inflict Minor Wounds) reduces metamagic costs on the whole spell, down to the spell's original level. Cooperative and invisible can be applied to any spell, and have +0 slot cost. So heighten the IMW to 5th, applying invisible and cooperative, reducing the slot cost to 3rd.

Why Ruathar, or is that just an open spot you couldn't think of anything else for?

It has easy entry requirements, advances generic spellcasting, and has a bonus feat that can be swapped out with the Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I Spells). That's it.[/quote]

Arcane Thesis explicitly doesn't work with Heighten Spell.

Arcane Thesis doesn't reduce the cost of heighten, except by proxy through +0 Metamagic feats (Inv, Coop)

Thanks for the interest

[Debatra]

So how are you getting the 4th-level Shadow spell by second level?

Metamagic school focus allows you to reduce metamagic costs by 1, 3x per day, and the spell Net of Shadows is a 1st level shadow spell. Heighten it to 4th by using all three uses of MSF on it, and you have a 4th level shadow spell.

(click to show/hide)

Your wizard level lets you cast 3 illusion spells, NoS, Sil Image, Ghost Sound. It also, due to the Shadow Shaper ACF from UA, gets Hide as a class skill, so you can put 4 ranks in at 1st. Take Spell Focus Illusion (prereq), and at 2nd level, Bluff is a class skill for DfA, and they get 4+int per level; so put 4 ranks in bluff. Take ScM 1 at 3rd. (Sorry for the verbosity, just preemptively making a full explanation of the early entry, since you're the 2nd to ask in as many responses.)

It doesn't work like that. You can only reduce the cost of any one MM feat by one with that feat.

Also, since you seem to be putting all the PrC advancement into DFA, how do you qualify for MotAA since you traded out MSF?

The Pestilential Touch ability of the Nosomatic Chirurgeon lets you give up a spell or an SLA usage to cast any cure or inflict spell of the same level or lower. This has been considered by many to be arcane, and therefore qualifies for 'able to cast spells of X level' where X is the highest level SLA you have available. I'm contending that the ocular spells are prepared, qualifying you for things requiring prepared casting.

MotAA actually was only taken for the bonus MM feats; spellpool is nigh worthless to this character.

Magelord would be much harder to get to, but adds lots of signature spellyness to the character. The feat tax is very high though. Evasion can be had from the Shadow Creature template in MoP.

Hmm, not unreasonable. Maybe Incantatrix?

How does adding Cooperative and/or Invisible Spell do anything?

Arcane Thesis (Inflict Minor Wounds) reduces metamagic costs on the whole spell, down to the spell's original level. Cooperative and invisible can be applied to any spell, and have +0 slot cost. So heighten the IMW to 5th, applying invisible and cooperative, reducing the slot cost to 3rd.

That doesn't work. Where do people keep getting the idea that +0 Metamagic feats can reduce the cost of other Metas?

Why Ruathar, or is that just an open spot you couldn't think of anything else for?

It has easy entry requirements, advances generic spellcasting, and has a bonus feat that can be swapped out with the Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I Spells). That's it.

What bonus feat? Was RotW errata'd?

Arcane Thesis explicitly doesn't work with Heighten Spell.

Arcane Thesis doesn't reduce the cost of heighten, except by proxy through +0 Metamagic feats (Inv, Coop)

Which doesn't work.

[Chemus]

So how are you getting the 4th-level Shadow spell by second level?

Metamagic school focus allows you to reduce metamagic costs by 1, 3x per day, and the spell Net of Shadows is a 1st level shadow spell. Heighten it to 4th by using all three uses of MSF on it, and you have a 4th level shadow spell.

(click to show/hide)

Your wizard level lets you cast 3 illusion spells, NoS, Sil Image, Ghost Sound. It also, due to the Shadow Shaper ACF from UA, gets Hide as a class skill, so you can put 4 ranks in at 1st. Take Spell Focus Illusion (prereq), and at 2nd level, Bluff is a class skill for DfA, and they get 4+int per level; so put 4 ranks in bluff. Take ScM 1 at 3rd. (Sorry for the verbosity, just preemptively making a full explanation of the early entry, since you're the 2nd to ask in as many responses.)

It doesn't work like that. You can only reduce the cost of any one MM feat by one with that feat.

I still contend that all three uses can be applied to one MM feat simultaneously, as it neither uses nor references actions.

Also, since you seem to be putting all the PrC advancement into DFA, how do you qualify for MotAA since you traded out MSF?

The Pestilential Touch ability of the Nosomatic Chirurgeon lets you give up a spell or an SLA usage to cast any cure or inflict spell of the same level or lower. This has been considered by many to be arcane, and therefore qualifies for 'able to cast spells of X level' where X is the highest level SLA you have available. I'm contending that the ocular spells are prepared, qualifying you for things requiring prepared casting.

MotAA actually was only taken for the bonus MM feats; spellpool is nigh worthless to this character.

Magelord would be much harder to get to, but adds lots of signature spellyness to the character. The feat tax is very high though. Evasion can be had from the Shadow Creature template in MoP.

Hmm, not unreasonable. Maybe Incantatrix?

How does adding Cooperative and/or Invisible Spell do anything?

Arcane Thesis (Inflict Minor Wounds) reduces metamagic costs on the whole spell, down to the spell's original level. Cooperative and invisible can be applied to any spell, and have +0 slot cost. So heighten the IMW to 5th, applying invisible and cooperative, reducing the slot cost to 3rd.

That doesn't work. Where do people keep getting the idea that +0 Metamagic feats can reduce the cost of other Metas?

PHBII, Arcane Thesis Benefit excerpt: "When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal...[example cut out here] A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat."

The conditions are whenever you apply any metamagic other than heighten spell, the spell's level is lowered. Metamagic is applied simultaneously, either at preparation, or at casting, for spontaneous spells. So, you apply heighten at the same time as one or more metamagic feats that normally don't adjust a spell's level, and the spell's slot can be the same as its original level, with its effective level for all effects regarding level increased. Unlike other Metamagic reducers, Arcane Thesis doesn't adjust the MM costs, it adjusts the spell's final slot.

Why Ruathar, or is that just an open spot you couldn't think of anything else for?

It has easy entry requirements, advances generic spellcasting, and has a bonus feat that can be swapped out with the Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I Spells). That's it.

What bonus feat? Was RotW errata'd?

Ruathar says (emphasis mine): "Weapon and Armor Proficiency: You receive Martial Weapon Proficiency as a bonus feat..." DCFS launders this to any feat you currently qualify for.

[Debatra]

So how are you getting the 4th-level Shadow spell by second level?

Metamagic school focus allows you to reduce metamagic costs by 1, 3x per day, and the spell Net of Shadows is a 1st level shadow spell. Heighten it to 4th by using all three uses of MSF on it, and you have a 4th level shadow spell.

(click to show/hide)

Your wizard level lets you cast 3 illusion spells, NoS, Sil Image, Ghost Sound. It also, due to the Shadow Shaper ACF from UA, gets Hide as a class skill, so you can put 4 ranks in at 1st. Take Spell Focus Illusion (prereq), and at 2nd level, Bluff is a class skill for DfA, and they get 4+int per level; so put 4 ranks in bluff. Take ScM 1 at 3rd. (Sorry for the verbosity, just preemptively making a full explanation of the early entry, since you're the 2nd to ask in as many responses.)

It doesn't work like that. You can only reduce the cost of any one MM feat by one with that feat.

I still contend that all three uses can be applied to one MM feat simultaneously, as it neither uses nor references actions.

"Three times per day, you can reduce by one level the cost of a metamagic feat applied to a spell of the chosen school."

And you can only apply a MM feat once to a single casting of a spell (with a few specifically noted exceptions like Enhance Spell).

Also, since you seem to be putting all the PrC advancement into DFA, how do you qualify for MotAA since you traded out MSF?

The Pestilential Touch ability of the Nosomatic Chirurgeon lets you give up a spell or an SLA usage to cast any cure or inflict spell of the same level or lower. This has been considered by many to be arcane, and therefore qualifies for 'able to cast spells of X level' where X is the highest level SLA you have available. I'm contending that the ocular spells are prepared, qualifying you for things requiring prepared casting.

MotAA actually was only taken for the bonus MM feats; spellpool is nigh worthless to this character.

Magelord would be much harder to get to, but adds lots of signature spellyness to the character. The feat tax is very high though. Evasion can be had from the Shadow Creature template in MoP.

Hmm, not unreasonable. Maybe Incantatrix?

How does adding Cooperative and/or Invisible Spell do anything?

Arcane Thesis (Inflict Minor Wounds) reduces metamagic costs on the whole spell, down to the spell's original level. Cooperative and invisible can be applied to any spell, and have +0 slot cost. So heighten the IMW to 5th, applying invisible and cooperative, reducing the slot cost to 3rd.

That doesn't work. Where do people keep getting the idea that +0 Metamagic feats can reduce the cost of other Metas?

PHBII, Arcane Thesis Benefit excerpt: "When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal...[example cut out here] A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat."

The conditions are whenever you apply any metamagic other than heighten spell, the spell's level is lowered. Metamagic is applied simultaneously, either at preparation, or at casting, for spontaneous spells. So, you apply heighten at the same time as one or more metamagic feats that normally don't adjust a spell's level, and the spell's slot can be the same as its original level, with its effective level for all effects regarding level increased. Unlike other Metamagic reducers, Arcane Thesis doesn't adjust the MM costs, it adjusts the spell's final slot.

By your logic, you could use Metamagic Spell Focus and +0 Metamagic to throw around Meteor Swarms in 6th-level slots.

Why Ruathar, or is that just an open spot you couldn't think of anything else for?

It has easy entry requirements, advances generic spellcasting, and has a bonus feat that can be swapped out with the Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I Spells). That's it.

What bonus feat? Was RotW errata'd?

Ruathar says (emphasis mine): "Weapon and Armor Proficiency: You receive Martial Weapon Proficiency as a bonus feat..." DCFS launders this to any feat you currently qualify for.

Okay, yeah. I missed that part.

[Chemus]

[snip=MMSF Quotes]..."Three times per day, you can reduce by one level the cost of a metamagic feat applied to a spell of the chosen school."

And you can only apply a MM feat once to a single casting of a spell (with a few specifically noted exceptions like Enhance Spell)...

[snip=Arcane Thesis Quotes]...By your logic, you could use Metamagic Spell Focus and +0 Metamagic to throw around Meteor Swarms in 6th-level slots...

1. Using the feat 3 times simultaneously on a single use of heighten +3 costs the same actions as using it once on heighten +3. [edit]The bonus/penalty rules should not apply, as this is neither a bonus nor a penalty. (looking up the rules, I discovered, for myself, that racial bonuses stack! Neat.)[/edit]

2. That has nothing to do with AT, which says that the min level with the feat is the spells original level. However, MMSF actually would let you place a Cooperative, Invisible, Acid Substituted Meteor swarm in a 6th level slot; it has no listed minimum level.

[Debatra]

1. I have no idea what you're talking about. Who said anything about the action economy or racial bonuses/penalties?

2. I was using an intentionally-extreme example as a comparison. And you just ran with it.

You wanna take this to Break It Bought it? That's where the completely-insane-but-technically-RAW-if-you-squint stuff usually goes. Different subforum, different mindset.

[SorO_Lost]

You wanna take this to Break It Bought it? That's where the completely-insane-but-technically-RAW-if-you-squint stuff usually goes. Different subforum, different mindset.

Meh, it's not even TO. TO lets you reinterpret ambiguity, but not actually counter rules.

Chemus is like a brick wall made out of vibranium and very prone to butchering language to encompass entire terms that don't apply. Like a couple fallacies of association against the actual rules apply; Pestilential Touch is Spontaneous Spellcasting, Ocular Spell Prepares Spells in Spell Slots, "Silent Inflict" is a Spell, probably a few more without even getting into what 'cast' may or may not mean.

And ultimate, it's all crap anyway. A Warlock's Darkness Invocation is an SLA and meets requirements to cast the Darkness Spell per base rules. Nosomatic Chirurgeon isn't a factor, a find, anything new, game changing or even relevant really. However the rules also differentiate that SLAs do not meet level requirements which bans SLAs being used to qualify for such Classes such as MotAO. The rules also go so far as saying you have to use a class's spellcasting progression, not Feats or Items that modify spellcasting like Pestilential Touch, to qualify for Requirements.

The entire thing is an example of how an altered mental status can get you to see one thing, then the human condition to immediately react and pretend it's right in defense of a terrible mistake. Inventing any number of rationals to claim it does, no matter how inconsistent or how disagreeable those are.

[faeryn]

i love playing illusionists and SCM might be one of my favorite prCs but I really have to agree with Debatra and SorO_Lost on this one... this simply doesn't work the way you've written it out... additionally from reading it and looking into everything listed it would actually appear that you are reducing the number of times pr day you can use SCM and turning your spells from standard action casts into 2 round casts for "preparations"

The only thing I can honestly see out of this is an attempt to overwhelm someone with a large number convoluted actions to distract them from the fact that your blantantly ignoring rules to make something happen that doesn't work the way your using it.

[Chemus]

1. I have no idea what you're talking about. Who said anything about the action economy or racial bonuses/penalties?

2. I was using an intentionally-extreme example as a comparison. And you just ran with it.

You wanna take this to Break It Bought it? That's where the completely-insane-but-technically-RAW-if-you-squint stuff usually goes. Different subforum, different mindset.

1. I assumed that you were referring to the stacking rules, which refer to spell/psionic effects, and generic bonuses and penalties. I talked about number of actions. It's not an action to reduce the MM cost by 1, and I don't see that general stacking rules apply, so what prevents all uses at once?

I don't agree, but your interpretation has merit, and if that's the way it works, the build would have to wait 'til later to get to ScM, perhaps til wizard 3.

2. Yes, I did indeed. You get one (1) 9th level spell in a 6th level slot per day in that fashion. The feat MMSF has no clause stating that the original spell's level is minimum, and there's no general rule specifying so.

How did your argument contradict mine on how Arcane Thesis works?

And I'd considered YBI/YBI, perhaps I should have. The questionable bit is indeed the previously stipulated Ocular spell.

[skipping to arguments, snipping stuff I haven't contended or even suggested]...Pestilential Touch is Spontaneous Spellcasting, Ocular Spell Prepares Spells in Spell Slots...without even getting into what 'cast' may or may not mean.

...A Warlock's Darkness Invocation is an SLA and meets requirements to cast the Darkness Spell per base rules. Nosomatic Chirurgeon isn't a factor, a find, anything new, game changing or even relevant really. However the rules also differentiate that SLAs do not meet level requirements which bans SLAs being used to qualify for such Classes such as MotAO. The rules also go so far as saying you have to use a class's spellcasting progression, not Feats or Items that modify spellcasting like Pestilential Touch, to qualify for Requirements....

PT is a Su ability that lets you sacrifice a spell or SLA to cast inflict spells, using the same language as cleric's cure/inflict conversion. It's not an SLA, and the ability itself allows you to cast inflict spells. Not from spell slots, but there are few or no PrC's requiring spell slots rather than spellcasting.

Ocular Spell is indeed questionable as to whether the stored spells count as prepared spells. No ability used here requires spells prepared in slots, merely the ability to sacrifice a prepared spell (Signature spell). I agree that it's a loose reading that permits an ocular spell to count as a prepared spell.

Warlock's darkness invocation: "DARKNESS, Least; 2nd, You can use darkness as the spell." Nope, no casting there. And indeed the general rule for invocations and SLAs preclude them from counting as 'casting spells of X level', but the specific invocations do count as specific spells for PrC's (CArc, p 72) Regarding PT as an SLA, it's not. See above.

And SorO, where do the rules state that the spellcasting progression may not come from modified spells? Other required abilities can come from modified abilities, such as modified Str from items, indeed you can qualify with a feat granted by possessing a magic item. You may need the item in order to continue to qualify, losing everything but HD and any level granted feats if you don't keep said item/ability.

@faeryn: The 2 round casting is correct, I mentioned it in the explanation, and again in conclusion; though if the Ocular Spells stored counts as prepared, you'd have 2 at the start of each encounter. I'm not attempting to "baffle 'em with ..." here; I merely tried to present a complete picture of how using Ocular spell in this fashion could work. The MMSF reading is corect, IMO, but if not merely delays things. The Arcane Thesis reading, commonly used in Metamagic builds, is also correct as far as I can tell.

[SorO_Lost]

Pestilential Touch is a supernatural ability to spontaneously convert, not cast btw, spell energy into something else, the Cleric has an untyped Class Feature called Spontaneous Spellcasting that to converts Prepared Spells in Spell Slots (which is how a cleric casts) into another typeof Spell and is additionally governed by RC's update on psudo-Spontaneous Spellcasting: "A multiclass spellcaster can’t cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class." Apples and f'ing bowling balls dude.

Prepared Spellcasting is also a mechanical term with a whole entry dedicated to in multiple books. And Ocular does not say it Prepares anything, you are using your own terminology when an actual mechanic already defines it. It's like saying a Sorcerer "prepares" Fireball, because he is walking into a cold environment and saving a 3rd level Slot seems wise, and then immediately claiming the Sorcerer can use Mage's Lubrication because of that "preparation".

And on the other two things I noticed you asked, Complete Arcane expends on caster entry with the intent of levels and how SLAs can meet specific cast X Spell requirements (a feat from the same book even says you cast slas). Then the FAQ fully comes out and nixes usage of Sanctum Spell's level boost to meet Extra Spell's Requirement entry forever and ever quelling the debate if Requirements use your language or the mechanically defined rules.

[Chemus]

Huh. I should check RC more; I tend to use SRD searches.

[edit] "Pestilential touch:...This ability allows you to spontaneously "lose" a single usage of any spell or spell-like ability to cast any inflict spell of the same spell level or lower. (An inflict spell is any spell with "inflict" in its name, such as inflict light wounds).

Unlike with a normal casting of an inflict spell, the damage dealt by this ability is not negative energy, and so cannot be used to heal undead."

See the '...cast any inflict...' and 'Unlike with a normal casting...' bits? Yer casting a spell, it even says where it's different from normally casting that spell. [/edit]

Singature Spell says "..convert prepared arcane spells of [the chosen mastered] spell's level or higher into your signature spell, just as a good cleric can spontaneously cast prepared spells as cure spells..."

My presumption is that if I can get the spontaneous arcane spell (inflict X) to count as prepared, then it could power Sig Sp. The only thing going in favor of that is that RC is talking of class abilities, rather than feats.

Re: Ocular spell, yes again, I was overly hopeful in using that; I thought that I'd seen it counting as prepared previously. Alas.

The FAQ talks of sanctum spell. OK. What are you contending that that nixes? The Extra Spell requirement (Prerequisite) is Caster Level X, the benefit indeed talks of levels you can cast, and according to the faq, references class progression rather than spells you currently have available to cast. What does this change? (Additionally, I take issue with using the faq as rules, as it will occasionally contradict the actual text in the rulebook.)

[edit2] Edited the first post about ocular spell. Had been debating Debatra about the rest, with OS stipulated, but meh. [/edit]

[SorO_Lost]

What are you contending that that nixes?

Can you use sanctum to pick a higher level spell than normal with the Extra Spell feat?
No, you would need to use your class’s spellcasting progression when picking the new spell learned via the Extra Spell feat, not including the benefit of the sanctum spell or similar effects.

Pretty much everything.

And it's to be expected really.

SPELLCASTING LEVEL
Beyond the limits of magical power, a spellcasting level requirement measures the size and complexity of the spells that can be encompassed within a character’s mind. As spells increase in level, they become exponentially more complicated, requiring a discipline of thought and an understanding of principles impossible for low-level characters to learn. Wizards master these advanced principles through careful study; sorcerers and other spontaneous arcane casters intuit what they need to know as their spellcasting experience grows. Characters or creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations never learn the arcane circumlocutions of logic and mental training necessary for advanced spellcasting. As such, requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast (“Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells,” for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations—not even spell-like abilities or invocations that allow a character to use a specific arcane spell of the appropriate level or higher.

Obviously the entry is aimed at SLA users but a generalization of it would be pretty RAI fitting.

Andy Collins (PHB, DMG, MotP, PlH, A&E, MIC, CAd, CD, CW, Draco, MMIII, FF, FR:MoF, etc) just took things a bit further for those who might be wondering.

[Chemus]

You didn't say how the faq entry on Sanctum spell and its ilk affected anything I'd been arguing about.

Shadowcraft Mage must be able to cast 3 illusions, 1 of which needs to be a shadow spell of 4th level or higher. This is not at all about progression, or even Caster Level. It's about a spell being of a particular level.

The rest is a bit of goose/gander stuff; why is it OK for you to extrapolate one way that you think is RAI, but not OK for others to use RAW, or extrapolate another direction where the rules are silent?

Andy Collins credentials don't appear to prevent his making mistakes on occasion, sometimes misreading the question, sometimes contradicting rules in the books, sometimes giving examples that don't jibe with his answer or with the book's rules. The faq is not errata, in my opinion, just suggested house rules.

[Debatra]

The faq is not errata, in my opinion, just suggested house rules.

Fixed that for you. The FAQ has been known to directly contradict the RAW on occasion.