Lesser Tiefling multiclass Warblade/Swordsage - THF, AoO build

[Kyrae]

Yo!

Forgive the long post. 

Basic build up to comments is now lower down page, thank you.

So after the early demise of my Psion, I'm rolling a new character. As I died mid-session last night, I had to quickly come up with something to get back into play, so I'm starting with a Lesser Tiefling Warblade. It seemed like a cool idea at the time, and with the stat adjustments would work pretty nicely for for a Warblade/Swordsage multiclass.

Stats rolled were 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 6. Allocating them and then applying the Lesser Tiefling attribute changes, I've landed with:
Str 17, Dex 16  (14 + 2 (race)), Con 16, Int 15  (13 + 2 (race)), Wis 15, Cha 4  (6 - 2 (race))

Thankfully my DM is not too sharp on things like Ego Whip!

The image I have in mind is a fast, agile, skillful warrior who combines the solid martial benefits of Iron Heart & Diamond Mind (from Warblade levels) with some of the flashy esoteric maneuvers of Desert Wind and Shadow Hand (from Swordsage levels) with a bit of Tiger claw for a couple of the nice picks (Pouncing Charge, and a couple of the Jumping maneuvers, because they are cool).

I play in a fairly low optimized group. We have an Elan Psychic Warrior (who is going for the main "strong man", power attack, charge kind of style"), a Human Warmage (likes blasting), a Human Ranger (who will be going into using Guns(DM Homebrew)), a ?Catfolk Rogue, a Human Monk, a Dwarven Rogue, an Elven Sorcerer.

Starting ECL is 2. Campaign is quite slow in terms of levelling, so I would need for the character to be playable throughout. Starting wealth is 100GP. (25GP Studded Leather, 35GP Bastard Sword, 40GP random travellers items & some change)

Sources are basically what we physically have - PHB, Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, Expanded Psi Handbook, Complete Psionic, Complete Warrior, Complete Arcane.  I'm sure a feat or two from PHB2 would be okay (Robilar's). He did allow Lesser Tiefling, too.

I would like to split my focus between charging and attacks of opportunity. As we are low op and going for flavour, I'd like to use a Bastard Sword (Katana) rather than a Reach weapon, although can switch to a Guisarme or similar if I find my contribution to the group underwhelming (which I doubt will happen)

I would be focussing on Improved Bullrush/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack for charging, and on Combat Reflexes/Ironheart Aura/Stormguard Warrior for AoOs.

Using Warblade to pick up the Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, and ?Tiger Claw maneuvers. Using Swordsage to pick up the Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and occasional Setting Sun maneuver.

Just throwing this out there for now, will build ideas and try and get a build started as I go along. Would sure appreciate some help putting this together.

Proposed build is in a post lower down in this thread, after having had some time today to work on it. Comments are welcome - thank you!

[Endarire]

Hood can give you some spiffy ideas on how to two-hand things for tremendous effectiveness.  A typical Hood focuses on charging, but AoO are also spiffy.

Beyond AoO, what do you most want this character to do?  What is your starting ECL?  Starting wealth?  Sources allowed?

Do you use favored classes?  Does your GM allow you to swap maneuvers/stances more generously than is listed in Tome of Battle?  (The Tome of Battle method is one maneuver at level 4 in a class, then every two class levels thereafter.)

[Kyrae]

Hi Endarire, thank you for your reply.

That was a poorly thought out initial post! 

DM does not seem to use favored classes. I would add that he is a bit wary of multiclassing, he likes for any new class taken to be roleplayed through apprenticeship, special tasks etc. and I would not want to push this much beyond Warblade/Swordsage.  Perhaps a single PrC on top of that, but certainly not more than that.

Other information I have now included in the original post.

Maneuver swapping would be kept as per the book, knowing my DM.

Thank you for the link - I'll be sure to give it a read this evening.

[Kyrae]

LOL at the Hood/Dragoon Knight.

In the last game, I played a Spirit Lion Orc Barbarian/Fighter with a Valorous Wrathful Healing Large Greatsword... with Shock Trooper/Leap Attck etc.. hilarious fun, but the DM got a bit miffed with the 250+ damage per hit and I massively outshone the other party members.

With that said, what I want from this build I suppose are:
A slightly less ridiculous, but still pretty damn cool and effective character, using both AoOs and charging. If I forget the Improved Trip/Combat Expertise/Knock-down combo, and use the AoOs more for pure damage, alongside some charging, I would be looking at the following feats:

flaw- Improved Bullrush
1 Power Attack
3 Ironheart Aura
Warblade 5 Combat Reflexes
6 Stormguard Warrior
9 Robilar's Gambit
12 Shock Trooper
15 Leap Attack

This is assuming I go Warblade 6 to begin with, to meet the BAB +6 requirement of Stormguard Warrior. The AoOs won't really come into real play until Level 9, but I'm okay with that. Plenty of maneuvers to be having fun with in the meanwhile.

7th level+ Warblade Maneuvers - I like Avalanche of Blades, Finishing Move, ?Swooping Dragon Strike (maybe)
7th level Swordsage Maneuvers would be awesome too, but I've not worked out if you can get 7th level in both in a build.  5th level Swordsage maneuvers would be sufficient for my needs (Shadow Stride, Dragon's Flame, Leaping Flame)


Examples of what I would like to achieve:

Shadow Stride next to an enemy, initiate a Standard Action maneuver, then Sudden Leap Away
Pouncing Charge into an enemy using Shocktrooper to take from AC instead of Attack, then parry their return in the next round with Wall of Blades.
Occasionally create distance with Sudden Leap/Shadow Stride, shout something dramatic, and unleash flame at my opponent with Dragon's Flame or Fan the Flames
Run up to a group of enemies, hit the centre one with Death Mark, for explosion fun.
Use Robilar's Gambit and Stormguard Warrior to build up AoOs, combine with Burning/Searing Blade in next round and unleash mass damage.

Think its achievable?

Thanks

[Kyrae]

1 Warblade 1  Power Attack, Improved Bullrush     Steel Wind, Moment of Perfect Mind, Charging Minotaur     Stance:Hunter's Sense
2 Warblade 2                                                          Sudden Leap
3 Warblade 3  Combat Reflexes                              Wall of Blades
4 Warblade 4 +1 str                                               Swap Steel Wind for Emerald Razor    Stance: Punishing Stance
5 Warblade 5  Iron Heart Aura                               Iron Heart Surge
6 Warblade 6  Stormguard Warrior                        Swap ? for ?
7 Warblade 7                                                         Bounding Assault or Ruby Nightmare Blade or Death from Above         
8 Warblade 8 +1 int                                              Mithral Tornado or Lightning Recovery
9 Swordsage 1 Robilar's Gambit                           Counter Charge, Cloak of Concealment, Shadow Jaunt, Burning Blade, Fan the Flames, Death Mark   Stance: Pearl of Black Doubt
10 Swordsage 2                                                    Fire Riposte   Stance: Leaping Dragon Stance
11 Warblade 9                                                       Pouncing Charge
12 Warblade 10 Leap Attack, ?(Imp. Init, Lightning Rec, Martial Study?)     Swap ? for Greater Insightful Strike    Stance: Hearing the Air
13 Warblade 11                                                     Ironheart Endurance
14 Warblade 12  +1 1str                                       Swap ? for Finishing Move           
15 Swordsage 3 Shock Trooper                            Leaping Flame     
16 Swordsage 4                                                     Swap Shadow Jaunt for Shadow Stride (or Burning Blade for Searing Blade), take Searing Charge/Searing Blade/Dragon's Flame/Shadow Stride - something along these lines.

For a built based around being strong and agile, solid melee fighter with some focus towards with AoOs (for damage, not tripping) and towards charging, with some good martial maneuvers for damage and defense, with a bit of flashy "shooting fire from my sword and teleporting through shadow because I've just learned to channel my infernal nature through a training montage with a high level Swordsage" wuxia - how does this look, generally? Should be fun I think

[Kyrae]

Duplicate post.

[Endarire]

OVERALL: What about going +1 INT at L4 to increase your skill points overall, assuming that's what you want the INT bonus for?

Right now, you're focusing on being powerful right now, which is good.

MANEUVERS & STANCES: I understand Charnging Minotaur synergizes well with Improved Bull Rush.  Still, is it worth keeping throughout your entire career?  Swapping it for Mountain Hammer seems a lot more useful so you can bypass DR and hardness and bash through any wall, rubble, or monstar.  Also remember this oft-forgotten rule:  Stone Dragon maneuvers can only be used on the ground (Tome of Battle 81, left column, second paragraph from the top).  Are you flying?  Swimming?  Falling?  No Stone Dragon maneuver usage for you!

I like Steel Wind.  It's useful, especially since you lack Cleave.  Both are situational, but Steel Wind doesn't cost you a feat nor require you hit the first target to attack the second.

I dislike Pearl of Black Doubt.  It relies on others both attacking and missing you, which is generally unlikely considering your build and the general low ACs of level-appropriate creatures.  Child of Shadow is probably a much better stance with a similar effect.

FEATS: Get Improved Initiative sooner rather than later.  The sooner you go, the sooner the enemies don't.  That is, the sooner you go, the sooner the enemies perish or are nullified.  Why wait so long for Leap Attack while you take Stromguard Warrior ASAP?  Stromguard helps with accuracy... if you Power Attack.  Leap Attack lets you go crazy-go-nuts with damage so long as you jump into attack position.

QUESTIONS: Can you get your GM's permission to delay your Warblade4 stance until Warblade5, thereby allowing you to take Leaping Dragon Stance @5?

Shock Trooper aside, why is bull rushing so important to you?

How likely are you to reach higher levels?

If you're so interested in reach, what about buying and using a Glaive instead (8G/10lb)?  Use gauntlets or armor spikes to handle foes immediately next to you.  That should leave you with more money for a better armor.

Finally, what's so funny about Hood?

[Kyrae]

I found the Hood funny simply because it's so well put together and optimized that if I were to use all of the tips offered, I would majorly annoy the entire table. But it's beautiful. I remember doing 250 damage on average with each attack on my previous Barbarian, and that outshone just about everyone (We have a low, or low-mid op group, you see)

Overall - That is a fine idea. The Int boost for skills, reflex save, and to boost the Warblade class features, many of which wouldn't really be coming online until later.. Taking Str from 17 to 18 early increases damage and hit, especially the x1.5 for hitting with a two handed weapon (Boost would jump from 4 to 6, which seemed more relevant and useful at earlier levels).  That was my thinking. But I shall consider your suggestion, as it will let me get more skill points which will be important, and there is always time for damage. I'll think on it, thanks.

Maneuvers & Stances - Charging Minotaur is certainly not keeping throughout my entire career. I will swap it at latest by Level 12, just after I get Pouncing Charge, or earlier, for Mountain Hammer. Or possibly instead of Steel Wind.. something to think on. Thanks.

Child of Shadow over Pearl of Black Doubt - Yes! Of course. Excellent.

Feats - Good question. I think I was just trying to cram them all in there, so now your advice is very useful in helping me tactically work out what comes first. I'll take some time to think on that now and edit this post later.

Questions:
I very much doubt I'll get DM permission to change the stance progression.

Bull rushing is not 'so important to me', it is just a necessary feat to get into Shocktrooper later, and the Charging Minotaur seems like a good maneuver for low-level play (although I will be swapping that out later, thanks).

The DM has stated we will be leveling fairly slowly but has not set an 'end level' to the game. The aim now is to move gradually into and enjoy the mid-level style of play, at a rate the new players are comfortable with. At an estimate, I would be surprised if it went above Level 12-14.

I'm not "so interested in reach", I'm actually electing to use a Bastard Sword and will consider a Glaive only if I feel the character is a bit useless in a fight - which I don't anticipate happening. As I'm in a fairly low op group, I feel safe to go with flavor over efficacy at times as that helps my fun. I'm happy to make AoOs standing toe-to-toe with enemies as they swing at me using Robilar's Gambit. Got Spiked Gauntlets already selected as well, but yeah a useful tip to have those regardless.

Thanks for your reply

[Kyrae]

I will come back to this later. Just as a follow-up, I would like to ask for opinions on feat progression?

Character is now at level 3. I've taken Improved Bullrush, Power Attack and Combat Reflexes. I'd like to get a few goodies to both charging and AoO. How would you go about this properly? 

What's the best order for taking Iron Heart Aura, Stormguard Warrior and Robilar's Gambit.. and Leap Attack/Stormtrooper? Heck, I might even drop Stormtrooper and just go with Leap Attack, using Emerald Razor to get one solid damaging PA in.

[Endarire]

I'm not sure about the optimal order for IHA, SW, and RG.  Stormguard Warrior seems not worth it:  Why not just attack your foe normally?  Also, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are dependent upon your character - once you qualify, which do you prefer to have right now?

[Kyrae]

Good question. I suppose I read it can add some awesome bonuses to hit and damage when combined with Robilar's Gambit, which then combined with Emerald Razor+Power Attack, or a full attack, would do lotsa damage..

However, it's not necessary, I have maneuvers like you mentioned, and by dropping Stormguard and its prereq feat, I inject a lot more breathing space into the build.

If I delay the Swordsage Dip, then take Robilar's at 12th, take Swordsage for Level 13/14 and gain higher level maneuvers. Win-win in the longterm. I think this could be a solution. It would look like this:

1 WB  1  Power Attack, Imp Bullrush
2 WB  2
3 WB  3  Combat Reflexes
4 WB  4
5 WB  5  Improved Initiative (WB)
6 WB  6  Leap Attack
7 WB  7
8 WB  8
9 WB  9  Shock Trooper, ?Blind-Fight/other(WB)
10 WB 10
11 WB 11
12 WB 12 Robilar's Gambit
13 SS 1
14 SS 2
15 WB 13  2 blank feats (1 level, 1 WB)

So this would grant the charging boons altogether by Level 9, the AoO setup by Level 12, a bunch of Swordsage Maneuvers up to 4th Level at Level 13/14, and 2 spare feats at Level 15.

Maybe Martial Study/Stance, Pierce Magical Concealment, or Evasive Reflexes - any suggestions on Level 15 feats or Martial Stance/Study to go with are welcome. Perhaps even Flyby Attack (Pretty sure the character will be getting Feather Wing Fiendish Graft at some point..!)

Thanks Endarire, seems to be coming into place.

[Endarire]

At this point, how far away in real time does level 15 seem?  Is it likely to happen?  What other feats are you considering?  At this point, it seems largely a matter of preference.  You have the core concepts of your build done by then, so what else do you want to do?

[Kyrae]

Level 15 is a long way away.

I could just go with Ironheart Aura and Stormguard Warrior then, because why not.

DM may even be allowing a Homebrew sword that grants a couple of the Desert Wind maneuvers. If I get that, and some magical item to allow teleportation, I won't feel the need to go into Swordsage at all, which makes thinks very simple indeed.

I think I'm done. Thanks for your help Endarire!

[Endarire]

Thanks for asking.  And you're welcome!