Whisper Gnome Psion Infiltator/Sneak

[Kyrae]

Hi,

I'm attempting to create a Whisper Gnome "infiltrator/thief" type character, using Psion as the main class. I would love your ideas and input.
In a similar fashion as to how a Ranger/Psion/Slayer will end up with better manifesting/BAB than a pure Psychic Warrior when it comes to fighting/manifesting, I am looking for a similar way to minmax a Psion-based stealth/skillmonkey with manifesting.  Themes of Shadow, Underground, etc...

3.5. All sources allowed. (Dragon magazines and cheese subject to DM approval). Assume no flaws as I am using Psion, and my DM only allows flaws for lower tier class builds. Beginning at Level 3. Party is not very optimized.

My current idea is to begin with Rogue 1/Psion (Telepath) 1/Swordsage 1.

Rogue for the nice skill base and sneak attack (to later combine with Assassin's Stance and Craven, which I believe can be used with Energy Ray, etc)
Psion (Telepath) because I want to be using powers for utility, social use, manipulation, mental domination, damage, debuff, etc. etc.
Swordsage mainly for boosts and counters (Setting Sun and Diamond Mind), focussing primarily on Shadow Hand (to keep with the Stealth theme, Child of Shadow, Concealment etc.) as well as the teleportation maneuvers...

Hoping to pick up a continual Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis and a Torc of Power Preservation as items of note. With the Underdark fluff, I think I could perhaps get away with taking Earth Sense/Power for PP recharge shenanigans.

I was thinking to then add more levels of Psion, another level of Swordsage when I hit I.L. necessary for Assassin's Stance.

So beginning with following maneuvers and powers, or something similar...
Stance - Child of Shadow - Gain Concealment as long as you move
Maneuvers - Shadow Jaunt(2), Cloak of Deception(2), Emerald Razor(2), Baffling Defense (2), Counter Charge(1), Sudden Leap(1)
Powers -  Inertial Armor, Mind Thrust, Charm Person

So - firstly - if anybody has a way better idea on how to go about building this character, please jump right in.
Secondly - if this one looks like an OK start, what feats? I was thinking Darkstalker, Craven, Earth Sense/Power.. Up the Walls..

It's like the sneaking of a Rogue/Swordsage, but without the focus on TWF.. but with the Psionics.. hmm, might work...

Any thoughts?

Thank you, as always.

[Jackinthegreen]

If you could get Int to work for the swordsage AC boost instead of Wis then it'd work out pretty well.

If it's worth anything to you, there are the Instant Clarity and Psychic Renewal feats in ToB that might be of note.

Yes, Energy Ray can be used with SA.

[phaedrusxy]

I would suggest that you just abandon the entire idea of sneak attack, since you aren't planning to go the TWF route (and good for you, since it is way too feat intensive). I'd suggest simply using the old Ranger 1/Psion 6/Slayer 10 build. Slayer gets 4 skill points per level from a good list, which with your main stat being Int is actually a lot of skill points.

Now the odd thing is if you want Trapfinding (as a rogue), then you'll have to trade out your Track feat for it (Dungeonscape variant) and then actually take the feat to get into Slayer. Of course, you can get by perfectly well without trapfinding in many games, especially if you use clever alternatives (detect magic/psionics will "detect" most traps, and then you can destroy/trigger them remotely using your powers... or you could always drag a Log around).

Anarchic Initiate also has 4 skill points per level, and loses no manifester levels. So that's another appealing option.

If you don't mind playing with an Ardent base (CPsi), and your DM buys into the whole Practiced Manifester boosting your level of accessible powers, then that can pair quite well with Swordsage and is much more tolerant of lost manifester levels.

If you can use unofficially updated 3.0 web material, the Shadow Mind PrC might be something to check out.

[Shadowhunter]

You could just use Psychic Rogue.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

[Kyrae]

Thank you.

Shadowhunter, thank you - I alluded to but did not specify that I do not want to go with Lurk or Psychic Rogue, when I wrote "In a similar fashion as to how a Ranger/Psion/Slayer will end up with better manifesting/BAB than a pure Psychic Warrior when it comes to fighting/manifesting, I am looking for a similar way to minmax a Psion-based stealth/skillmonkey with manifesting." I could certainly have been more specific though, so thanks for the otherwise very useful suggestion.

I guess Ranger/Psion/Slayer could work.. I'm just used to using that build to melee-gish with... but I guess there's nothing stopping me from going with it but using powers to sneak and manifest, instead..

DM has approved either Rogue or Ranger level 1 to begin, but has requested after that I keep it to straight Psion thereafter, or prestige classes.

So tired, now. I'll post more later. Thanks again for the input.

[Kyrae]

So, whilst I am debating a Ranger or Rogue into, I'm looking at feats and powers.

Trying to weight up the Ranger/Psion/Slayer route, vs. a Rogue/Psion/?? (Daggerspell Psion, Shadowmind, Psionic Trickster) approach.

The pro to Rogue is a couple more skills and the sneak attack feature (when coupled with Craven and Telekinetic Thrust or Crystal Shard could be a respectable source of damage) ((I  have just read Telekinetic Thrust would only apply one instance of SA, so nevermind that)

The pro to Ranger is an extra point of BAB, good fort save, easy pre-requisites into Slayer (full BAB, 9/10 manifesting, useful and also character suitable special mind-blanking abilities)

The fact that Ranger does not get as many skills is largely abated by taking the Telepath Discipline, which grants the social skills missing from Ranger.. and Ranger still gets the sneaking skills.

It is just a few other minor skills, such as forgery, escape artist, open lock and sleight of hand that will be missing.

So - Sneak Attack , vs BAB/pre-req into good PrC... anyone else like to weigh in? I'm wondering how I would be dealing damage as a Ranger/Psion/Slayer..


For feats, I am thinking:
Craven (if Rogue), Darkstalker, Earth Sense/Power, Linked Power, Psionic Meditation, Psicrystal Affinity..
Maybe Expanded Knowledge (or Hidden Talent at level 1) for Dimension Hop, or later Greater Concealing Amorpha

For powers, I am thinking:

1 - Attraction, Charm, Control Light, Crystal Shard, Mind Thrust, Telempathic Projection, Vigor  (Expanded Kn - Dimension Hop)
2 - Bestow Power, Concealing Amorpha, Cloud Mind, Ego Whip (Daze), Id Insinuation (Confuse), Knock, Suggestion
3 - (Expanded Kn. Gt.Concealing Amorpha) Dispel Psionics, Empathic Transfer(Hostile), Solicit Psicrystal, Telekinetic Force, Telekinetic Thrust
4 - Dimension Door, Dominate, Schism, Time Hop
5 - Adapt Body, True Seeing
6 - Retrieve, Suspend Life, Temporal Acceleration

I guess there is no real harm done by selecting plenty of lower level powers at expense of higher power ones, as psionics scales and augments so well...

Does this seem like a good start for a stealthy manifester, whose combat style is going to be more around BFC/debuff/status effects, with a relatively small amount of direct damage?

[Captnq]

Take Glorytongue and Share Pain.

Here.

(click to show/hide)

THE MIND’S EYE (3.0)
Psychometabolism
Level: Psion/Wilder 1
Display: Material
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Power Points: 1
You gain the ability to stretch your tongue great distances and manipulate it as if it were a true limb. The tongue is treated as a Diminutive construct with 1/2 HD, hit points equal to half your maximum hit points, AC 13 (+4 size, -1 Dex), Strength 1, Dexterity 8, Con --, Int --, Wis 1, Cha 1. It uses your base attack bonus to touch, grab, or attack, but it does not threaten an area and deals no damage with its attacks. It is fully under your control and can manipulate objects like a tentacle. You can use the glorytongue to deliver touch spells. You can cause it grow (up to 100 feet long) or shrink (to its normal size) as a free action. It does not interfere with spellcasting or speaking. It can be used to make grapple checks, although its weak Strength makes it difficult to actually grapple a creature. It can wind its way up ropes, walls, and other vertical surfaces, and it is strong enough to suspend up to 10 feet of itself free of any supporting surface (to cross a pit, for example). The end of the tongue is a primitive sensory organ and can see up to 5 feet away with normal vision. (It does not have blindsight, darkvision, or low-light vision). You perceive everything the tongue perceives. Because it is an extension of your tongue, you can use it to taste things, although poisons and harmful effects do not transmit to you through the glorytongue. If destroyed, all but the original length of tongue that existed before the glorytongue power was used collapses into dust.

Because, you know, when I think of mental powers, I think of being able to have a hundred foot long tongue shoot out of my mouth and LOOK AT PEOPLE WITH A PRIMITIVE SENSORY ORGAN FROM FIVE FEET AWAY. That won't freak people out or nothing.

Cast darkvision on it and you can increase it's vision out to 60 feet. Great for looking around corners and what-not. Make sure to cast invisibility on it first so, you know, you can use it in public without people trying to burn you at the stake or something.

[phaedrusxy]

I'm wondering how I would be dealing damage as a Ranger/Psion/Slayer..

Astral Construct/Metamorphosis/Control Body (on others or yourself), etc, for "cheap" ways (PP-wise) to deal damage in combat. At the higher levels, there is also the Energy Wall-fueled Energy Conversion "trick" (shared with your Psicrystal, of course).

[Kyrae]

Thanks, phaedrusxy.. always helpful with my builds

So, getting the basics into place, I'm just wanting some advice on feats now...

Ranger 1/ Psion 6/ Slayer X

Ranger 1 - Track, Earth Sense
Psion 1 - Linked Power
Psion 2 - Earth Power
Psion 5 - Darkstalker, Psionic Meditation

Would be the start, I guess...

Other feats I am considering are  Titan Fighting, Psicrystal Affinity, Hidden Talent (Dimension Hop or Astral Construct), Expanded Knowledge (Greater Concealing Amorpha), and perhaps Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance and Craven (if they work together, Craven does state prereq of "Sneak attack class feature"?)

No flaws.

I would love it if somebody could simply line up the worthy feats in level-by-level order for me, perhaps lazy but I do find myself a little bit lost trying to work this all out. For example, if I included Hidden Talent at 1st level, would I be okay putting Darkstalker off for a while - I do get a little lost..

[phaedrusxy]

I think Psicrystal Affinity (so you can use Share Pain + (shared) Vigor) is one of the best feats for a psion, defensively. You can also see about getting Mindsight on your psicrystal. Earth Power has rarely seemed worth two feats for me. There are just too many other more appealing choices. Darkstalker is great for this kind of build, of course. You'll probably want some Expanded Knowledge feats (at least to pick up Chameleon, or you could use a dorje if you don't mind burning cash on it). Hidden Talent could work for that one also. Psicrystal Containment is also something I usually add, if I'm using my focus much (and I typically am).

A Ring of Diamond Mind (for Mind Over Body... or get two... add them to your other rings using the MiC rules) is definitely worth picking up, since you can "take 15" on Concentration checks by blowing your psionic focus, basically guaranteeing you make any critical Fort save.

[Captnq]

Well, just uploaded the lasted update to the EVD. (Check out my sig).

The psionomicon has a whole section on Astral Constructs.
The Class Handbook section has notes on Psion, and the Alternate version Erudite.
Honestly I did far more work on the Erudite then the Psion. I find the psion... boring.

The Feats section has a folder called Feat Sub-Handbooks. There you'll find various handbooks on groups of feats in various states of completion.

The ones to look at are:
METAPSIONIC FEATS v1.03
Psi-Spells
PSIONIC FEATS v1.01

The notes are sketchy, but there are some suggestions.

[Kyrae]

Awesome!

Cool stuff thank you guys.

Think I may also take Leadership..

Just trying to select the Level 1/2 powers...

Attraction, Charm, Chameleon, Control Light, Crystal Shard, Dimension Hop, Mind Thrust and Vigor are all ones I want. However, I can't get them all without a few of them being via Dorjes.

I guess that Attraction and Chameleon would be suitable for Dorjes?

Dimension Hop via Hidden Talent.. unless I go for Astral Construct, and pick up Novice Shadow Hands of Shadow Jaunt for 3,000gp for my teleportation..

Oh, the decisions...

[phaedrusxy]

I'd put Dimension Hop in a dorje, and take Attraction. Attraction has a save, and most of the time you're only going to hop 10' with Dimension Hop, anyway. I'd choose either Charm OR Attraction, not take both, also. Chameleon and Control Light (IIRC) are both almost as good in dorjes also.

[Kyrae]

Thank you.

First session very shortly today.

I think I will go with Psicrystal Affinity, Earth Sense and Earth Power to begin with - with only 10pp/day, it gives me a LOT more endurance with powers (I can effectively augment from from 1pp to 2pp for free). I can always Psyref out later.

Powers going with Control Light, Charm, Crystal Shard, Mind Thrust and Vigor for now.

Hmm, I am intrigued by the Telepath ACF at Level 5 for Telepathy.

I'm getting some wicked ideas with Mindsight,Telepathy, Burrowing Power...

Got any good sneaky Assassin/Scrying ideas abusing Telepathy, anyone?

[phaedrusxy]

I LOVE Burrowing Power, particularly when combined with some way to see through walls (which Burrowing Power itself can provide, if applied to Touchsight, for example). I have it on a character I'm currently playing in a PbP on Mythweavers, but haven't had an opportunity to use it yet.

One problem with Mindsight is that the opponents still have total concealment from you. So you can't actually use targetted powers on them. Burrowing Touchsight bypasses that problem handily, but also mostly eliminates the need for Mindsight in the first place.

Telepathy is useful when using Charm and similar powers on things with which you don't share a language, though.

I'm not a big fan of Mind Thrust. Although the damage is good, it has too many limitations (Mind-Affecting, allows a save and PR) for me to feel good about it.