Master Specialist Illusionist + Incantatrix?

[faeryn]

Ok, so I've been working on reworking my build for an ongoing campaign looking at dropping several of the classes I was initially planning to pick up...Arcane Trickster being one of them...

What I'm looking at now is building more towards a traditional spell caster even though my character will still play as a spellthief...

So her build atm looks like this:

Spellthief:2/Illusionist:3/Archivist:3/Mystic Theurge:6/Mystic Demiurge:1/Sacred Exorcist:1/???:1 We just leveled at the end of our last game and our next game is comming up real soon... we're playing well into epic levels (around level 40) so I've still got quite a ways to go with my build...

I'm looking at Master Specialist for it's bonuses it will give me to illusions... everything I can get to boost my Save DCs is welcomed... I really want illusions to be viable again for me to use...

Incantatrix is also being taken to boost my Illusion spell saves, I only plan to go to 3rd level Incantatrix, Metamagic Effect Irresistible Spell onto my illusions before anyone gets a chance to save...

I've got 12 Turn attempts per day for Divine Metamagic, all of which will be fueling my Daily Persisted spells... (Divine Power & Hunter's Eye)

so I'm looking at bumping my Illusion Spell saves up +16 over my base spell saves within the next 6 levels... That should make my illusions viable again... at least for a couple levels... but by then I'll finally qualify for Epic Spellcasting and be trying to convince my DM to approve my epic illusions...

Anyway... I think I'm rambling now... so onto my delima...

I've already selected Necromancy & Enchantment as my prohibited schools as an Illusionist... and Incantatrix requires me to select a 3rd prohibited school... Since Incantatrix explicitly forbids selecting Abjuration as a prohibited school and Divination can't be prohibited period that just leaves me with Evocation, Conjuration, and Transmutation... I honestly don't know which one to give up... Additionally I need to know some information regarding this extra prohibited school.

1) What happens to spells I already know that belong to this school?
2) Prohibiting a school via Incantatrix won't impact my spells available as an Archivist as well will it? I've already been told that my original 2 prohibited schools apply only to spells learned as a Wizard, and I would like to believe that the extra one will only apply to Wizard as well.
3) I've recently learned about the Arcane Transfiguration feat and it's prerequisites and I would like to know before going further if it would be worth it to take these feats to reclaim one prohibited school? Just a heads up, the one I reclaim will NOT be necromancy.

Also... is it really worth the extra prohibited school to get Incantatrix for free metamagic Int+3 times per day?

One more thing... does anyone know of any way to use a spellthief's Steal Spell ability to fuel metamagic feats? Personally I would think Ultimate Magus's Augmented Casting ability might qualify for this... If so, then I might just have to bring Spellthief up to 4th level and take a couple levels of Ultimate Magus to convert stolen spells into metamagic.

[ketaro]

The prohibited school would apply to whichever class you have Incantrix progressing your spellcasting level in.

Try to get Arcane Spellsurge? It's like Quicken Spell, except it's an actual spell. Then you could cast your metamagicked spells as a standard instead of a fullround and still cast a spell without metamagic in the same round and then go for a short walk somewhere~
Since I believe you are a spontaneous caster, yeah?
You wouldn't need to deal with needing to apply Irresistable via the class feature with enough MM reductions.
Easy Metamagic -1, Metamagic School Focus (pick illusion) -1, Practical Metamagic (spontaneous cast spells only) -1, now Irresistable only costs +1. Might as well go all the way in Incantrix for Instant Metamagic and the capstone of another -1 to metamagic costs.
That also makes Heighten Spell up to +4 be free as well just to toss a lil icing on the cake.
Throw in Evenlope the Wall (metamagic feat Kingdoms of Kalamar) which is like Heighten Spell but +2 per +1 spell lvl cost and you can get another +8 DCs on top of Heightens +4 DCs on top of Irresistable's +10 DCs for a +22 to Illusion DCs. For free.

*shrugs* :x

[faeryn]

Oooo.... I like your thinking there...

Technically playing a prepared spell caster (Wizard/Archivist) but due to house rules, all Prepared spellcasters are Spontaneous and all original Spontaneous spellcasters use Spell Points instead of Spell Slots (just to keep a distinction between the two)...

Since I have to take Envelope the Wall anyway for Irresistable Spell I may as well put the feat to use for me... and I may as well throw in Improved Metamagic for another -1 slot thus bringing my persisted spells down to +1(Illusions) or +2(Everything else) and it stacks with itself so I could take it again for free persisted illusions and +1 persist on other spells... Also... I'm not really sure if Metamagic School Focus is really worth taking... it has a limit of 3 times per day and if I'm reading it right it also only decreases the total increase by 1 not each metamagic applied... so I'd only get to use it 3 times per day to reduce a single metamagic cost per spell... the other cost reductions don't appear to have any such limitations though, only the "To a minimum of +1" restriction on most of them... infact it looks like School Focus is the only one that can reduce a cost to +0 all others specify "Minimum +1" and since Easy & Practical Metamagic both only apply to 1 metamagic feat per application of the feat it would likely be more beneficial to just take 4 instances of Improved Metamagic since it applies to ALL known metamagic feats.

That said, I'm not 100% certain if Practical Metamagic will apply in my case, but considering that the house rule also makes spontaneous metamagic rules apply to prepared spellcasters I don't see why it shouldn't still apply... He also houseruled +0 increase and Quicken Spell to NOT increase casting time for spontaneous metamagic... the +0 increase rule only applies to metamagics that had a +0 increase by default or are automatic effects.

Since I can't cast 7th level spells just yet, I'll have to wait a few levels for Arcane Spellsurge... but it will certainly be on my list once I gain 7th level spells. And just because it'd make things even crazier Rapid Metamagic when combined with Arcane Spellsurge will let me swift cast metamagic spells

That out of the way... I still need help picking which of my 3 remaining eligible spell schools I should prohibit for Incantatrix... and if it's even worth it to invest in Arcane Transfiguration to regain one of my lost schools.

[ketaro]

I personally hate banning Evocation, but everybody else in the world seems to agree that Evocation is the best school to ban in that it is the most useless school at higher levels. So that could be your 3rd banned school I suppose.

If you've been getting by fine with having banned Necromancy and Enchantment for awhile already, I don't see much need to bother getting access to one of them back.

[faeryn]

well mostly I was looking at regaining whatever 3rd school I ban... since I currently have quite a few spells from each of my remaining schools... and if I ban evocation then I'll want to at the very least get the Item Reprieve feat so that I can use wands and staffs again... We've collected quite a few evocation based wands and staffs over the course of the campaign and I've been using them when we need a blaster... I would honestly have no qualms banning Evocation if our 3 other arcane spellcasters would actually show up again... One's a Specialist Necromancer, another is a Domain Summoner, and the 3rd is a Specialist Evoker... I'd gladly hand those wands and staff over to them... It really sucks being the only spellcaster who regularly attends the game... our Clerics all up and vanished which lead to me becoming an Archivist to fill the role... the other regulars are more hack&slash types...

Actually... regarding that... since I have levels in Spellthief... could I still UMD that Evocation Staff and those Wands by virtue of my Spellthief levels even with Evocation as a prohibited school as an Illusionist Incantatrix?

[ketaro]

Banning a School only prevents casting the spells from your list, from a scroll, or from a wand.

Staves are usable by anyone, spellcaster or not, and are not restricted from use just cause the spells in the staff are part of a banned school of magic for you.
Wands, being capped at 4th level spells, aren't really going to have any Evocation spells actually worthwhile in a fight when attempting to fill the role of a blaster mage at those high levels.

[faeryn]

Banning a School only prevents casting the spells from your list, from a scroll, or from a wand.

Staves are usable by anyone, spellcaster or not, and are not restricted from use just cause the spells in the staff are part of a banned school of magic for you.
Wands, being capped at 4th level spells, aren't really going to have any Evocation spells actually worthwhile in a fight when attempting to fill the role of a blaster mage at those high levels.

The description of specialist wizards specifically states:

Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can't even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.

[ketaro]

Do you see Staves called out somewhere I don't?

[faeryn]

Do you see Staves called out somewhere I don't?

Niether do I but my DM disagrees... Otherwise i would have taken Focused Specialist Changeling Wizard at lv1 and banned evocation at lv 1 and conjuration with incantatrix

[ketaro]

Blah, fine fine. Messing stuff up with houserules. *ahem*

The rest of what I said still sounds solid though. You're not really able to contribute much using wands to fill the role of a blaster in a game nearly 20th level going on 40 unless that was the actual focus of your build. You're better off just doing your thing and not worrying about trying to make sacrifices to fill gaps left by players who don't show up often enough. Your DM should be able to adjust for missing players, that's his job, not yours. *shrugs*

[faeryn]

Blah, fine fine. Messing stuff up with houserules. *ahem*

The rest of what I said still sounds solid though. You're not really able to contribute much using wands to fill the role of a blaster in a game nearly 20th level going on 40 unless that was the actual focus of your build. You're better off just doing your thing and not worrying about trying to make sacrifices to fill gaps left by players who don't show up often enough. Your DM should be able to adjust for missing players, that's his job, not yours. *shrugs*

True... I rarely use the wands anymore anyway... I get far more milage out of assaulting enemies with buffed up sneak attacks anyway... My original role in the party with this character was to be the parties Rogue/Illusionist and when I learned about the Spellthief class and the Master Spellthief feat it was too good to pass up so my build became Spellthief/Illusionist... still filled the role of a roguish character and provided some greater versatility to my spellcasting by allowing me to steal spells from enemy spellcasters and borrow them from allies when needed... I know there's quite a bit of a debate as to if the Master Spellthief feat applies to max spells stolen, but that argument is moot in our campaign, the DM agrees with my view on it that it does increase it, so his call permits it.

He tried adjusting for missing players in the past... it resulted in the death of my previous character... so when we yet again lost our clerics I picked up Archivist as a precaution because I didn't want to lose another character to the parties lack of clerics... a decision that has sense actually resulted in a massive boost to my melee ability due to Divine Power and Hunter's Eye... my two favorite divine spells on this character... as you've probably guessed due to them being my daily persisted spells... we've got houserules on permanency that are rather overpowering... but Divine Power is banned from permanency and Hunter's Eye is more beneficial to persist than permanency due to it's uncapped CL based bonus... So while I took Archivist to fill a hole in the party, it's ended up as a source of self-buffs for my Spellthief while my Wizard(Illusionist) levels remain focused on casting Illusions... and Improved Mage Armor... +8Armor bonus without losing any of my Dex? Yes please.

Arcane Spellsurge solves a problem I had with my build that I was going to take Spelldancer to fix... the inability to cast a spell and attack with my Rogue Blade in the same round... so 2 levels till I can get that ability... certainly better than 8 levels of Spelldancer... I wouldn't lose any CL's from the half spell progression of Spelldancer due to Master Spellthief but the class just isn't really worth it... and Arcane Spellsurge does it's job so much better... the Int as Dodge to AC would still be nice though... But I have other methods of adding Wis to AC if I really need it... notably Kung Fu Genius+Chaos Monk (I'm playing a Chaotic Good character so I can't take the base Monk)

meh... any use we'd need of an Blaster can easily be filled with Shadow Evocation/Conjuration anyway... and with these cranked up spell saves even more so...

I'm still waiting on my DM to make good on his promise of "throwing a ton of wizards at the party"... personally I think my character scares him when it comes to that... She's perfectly suited to shutting down enemy spellcasters...

[faeryn]

While going through my spell list to cross off Evocation spells as no-longer castable... I discovered some interesting things that I can take advantage of due to being an Archivist to regain some of these spells...

1) Magic Missile is a Divine Spell on the Nentyar Hunter spell list (but not it's variants Chain Missile, Force Missiles, & Ring of Blades)
2) Shugenja provides Fireball and Lightning Bolt as Divine Spells
3) There are very few Evocation spells in my Spellbook that I can't have scribed into my Prayerbook to continue casting since many of them are also Cleric Spells.

Also, I'm an idiot since I can always use that Evocation staff via Archivist levels... Staffs unlike Wands aren't restricted to Arcane/Divine variants... not sure if that's an actual rule or just a houserule limitation my DM has... Only 2 members of our remaining party can use any of the Wands of Cure ___ Wounds we've collected... myself and our negative CL handicapped Ranger... of course when we got those wands we still had 3 clerics and a paladin... and I wasn't an Archivist yet when we bought those wands, so like any Wizard who overthinks things I went out and Bought myself an Arcane version crafted by a Bard...


Another question also comes up... the spell Firestride Exhalation is listed as belonging in Conjuration/Evocation... does prohibiting Evocation prevent me from casting this spell? Same Question for Slashing Dispel Abjuration/Evocation

[Jackinthegreen]

Yes, prohibiting one school of a dual-school spell prevents you from casting the spell since it is a prohibited spell.

[faeryn]

Yes, prohibiting one school of a dual-school spell prevents you from casting the spell since it is a prohibited spell.

That really sucks... 

I guess I won't be dealing damage with dispels anymore until I get Reaving Dispel with 9th level spells...  well atleast I can still provide our Ranger with Spellslayer Arrows and turn active spell effects against enemies with Magical Backlash & Reciprocal Gyre... losing Slashing Dispel is still a bit of a bummer... I can live without Firestride Exhalation... I've only used it once and it ended up putting me in more trouble than I was trying to escape from...

I highly doubt I can Shadow Evocation Slashing Dispel...

[ketaro]

Lightning Leap is pretty much the same as Firestride Exhalation except its Electricty and its only Transmutation.

[faeryn]

Ok... so I'm not entirely certain where or even how I could squeeze these in... but... I'm considering including a couple levels of Shadowcrafter & Shadowcraft Mage for the improvements to Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation... If I can get all 5 levels of Shadowcraft Mage and at least 7 levels of Shadowcrafter worked in then my Greater Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells will do 100% damage regardless of save...

As it stands right now... if we go to 40 and stop there then I'm already 2 levels over without these extra 2 classes...

Spellthief:2/Illusionist:3/Archivist:3/Mystic Theurge:6/Mystic Demiurge:7/Sacred Exorcist:1/Incantatrix:10/Master Specialist:10

The end result nets me 9th level Divine Spells as a 17th level Archivist, 9th level Arcane Spells as a 36th Level Illusionist, merged spell slots, use of highest CL for both casting classes, ability to treat Arcane spells as Divine and vice versa, Turn/Rebuke for Divine Metamagic Persists, Massive Save DC bonuses, and of course practically free metamagic all day long...

So it's really a tough call on what I can take a cut in If the campaign ends up running beyond 40th level (which we've been told is a possibility, although it's more likely to end before 40...) then I will absolutely take as many levels of Shadowcrafter and Shadowcraft Mage as I can...

Any ideas on working atleast some levels of the shadowcraft prCs into my build?