Author Topic: Why the urge to theurge?  (Read 12622 times)

Offline zugschef

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Re: Why the urge to theurge?
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2015, 10:22:41 AM »
A theurge is a worse caster than a cohort. I'd definitely call that gimped.

Offline faeryn

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Re: Why the urge to theurge?
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2015, 05:41:21 PM »
A theurge is a worse caster than a cohort. I'd definitely call that gimped.

The only reason why cohort casters are better options than theurge is due to action economy. You and your cohort get a full round of actions and may each cast a spell in the same round. Whereas a theurge under normal circumstances may only cast a single spell per round. This isn't always viewed as a benefit at every game table though. For instance, if you play in a game with a large group you might find that getting an extra round of actions from a cohort cheapens the experience for the rest of the group. Sure you and your cohort might be able to wipe out half the battle field with 2 spells but what does that leave for the rest of the party? How many encounters before people start leaving the game due to never getting to do anything?

And of course there's also DMs who ban leadership and its derivatives...

In all honesty, comparing anything that gives a single character additional versatility in one or more areas to a cohort performing the same job is going to have the same result. You're always better off with a cohort filling the extra role than spreading your own talents to fill it. But that doesn't make it gimped. Thats a rather narrow mindset if "a cohort does it better" equates to "it's gimped". It's rather common since that an extra character whose purpose is to perform a specific type of task will do so better than a character who can do everything. It's like the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none". Would you call a Jack of all trades gimped? I know I wouldn't. They may not be the best option, but they are a far cry from gimped.

Offline zugschef

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Re: Why the urge to theurge?
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2015, 05:40:49 AM »
The reason why a theurge is worse than a wizard cohort is the fact that the cohort casts 3rd level spells and the theurge 2nd level spells. And yes, because of action economy an assload of spells per day is not as helpful as you might think.

Offline faeryn

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Re: Why the urge to theurge?
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2015, 07:11:36 AM »
To be perfectly honest, in the end it really comes down to the game and the player. In a game where the DM bans Leadership and their's not enough party members to fill every role needed, then theurgy may look very tempting to the party's spellcaster. A campaign where there's a large number of players and the use of a cohort would just overcomplicate things or detract from the enjoyment of other player, then once again, theurgy might look like a very tanilizing option to someone who wants some more versatility. A gestalt campain where the DM actually allows dual-progressioon prCs, theurgy suddenly becomes the Holy Grail to a gestalt dual-caster.

I'll admit, I didn't intend to go theurgy with my character in the current campaign. But we kept losing our clerics... RL events kept pulling them away from the game and we've been unsuccessful at working out a new schedule that works for everyone... as a result we needed someone who could fill the role of a cleric atleast short term. I saw some spells on various divine spellcaster lists that would benefit my character, and had recently discovered the Archivist class which opened up the entire divine spell list to me, and fit in quite nicely with an RP element of my character (she's obsessed with knowledge). So I picked up a couple levels of Archivist over a couple months while we waited for one of our cleric players to be able to return to the game... (still waiting on that...) Since I invested a few levels into it already I decided to just stick with it and go theurgy. Had we known that our lack of a cleric was going to be long-term rather than the short-term we had originally believed it was going to be then one of us would have most likely picked up leadership and taken a cleric cohort instead. But Honestly, I don't regret picking up Archivist and buillding into theurgy one bit. Sure I'm not as useful as having a Wizard & a Cleric, but who really cares. I provide the functionality that our party needs of me, and my role as a wizard is an Illusionist anyway, I'm not a blaster, and I was already behind on spells from the start since I started out as a Spellthief. Took up Illusionist at 3rd level to get a better selection of spells and higher level spells in the end. Even with Theurgy, I've come out ahead of where I started out. Originally I was only going to have a handful of spells capping at 4th level... now I've got tomes filled with spells up to 8th level, and when we level next i'll have 9th level spells.

Also, epic level campains are another spot where Theurgy is a good option. And honestly, it's not about the number of spells you can cast per day. But about the versatility of said spells. As a prepared spell caster being able to prepare more spells each day even if you will only ever cast a handful of them allows you to be better prepared for the encounters to come. If you know you'll encounter a specific creature or obsticle, then you can always prepare spells to deal with it and judge how many of what you need for it. But it's what you don't know about that causes trouble. A theurge can deal with the unknown much easier than a straight caster. Simply because they can prepare for more possibilities at once.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Why the urge to theurge?
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2015, 09:39:06 AM »
I feel like we're talking past each other in this thread. 
To be perfectly honest, in the end it really comes down to the game and the player. In a game where the DM bans Leadership and their's not enough party members to fill every role needed, then theurgy may look very tempting to the party's spellcaster.
The conventional charopp analysis of Theurgy argues that it's a trap!  So, it might be tempting to the party's spellcaster, but, the conventional charopp wisdom contends, you should resist that temptation.  In other words, the conventional charopp with respect to Theurgy is something along the lines of "you think that'd be this nice option, but due to X, Y, and Z you'd get more of what you're looking for if you didn't do that and looked at these other options here."  That might be wrong, but that's the argument I've yet to really see in this thread. 

That's the nature of the charopp analysis.  Note that this is comparing the opportunity cost of Theurgy vs. some other readily available options, ranging from straight-classed spellcaster to more exotic options like Archivists, Shadowcraft Mages, and so on. 

I really want to emphasize the nature of the analysis here b/c it's in the rarefied air, or really the related metagame, of charopp.  Nothing here necessarily implies that playing a Theurgist (and, to be clear, an Archivist/Spellthief/Mystic Theurge is not really the standard to be judged against) is bad or unfun.  "Suboptimal" and "lots of fun" are venn diagrams with huge areas of overlap. 

The OP asked how well Theurgy delivered on its goals and whether there was a good reason for it.  The response to that, roughly has been: 
And honestly, it's not about the number of spells you can cast per day. But about the versatility of said spells. As a prepared spell caster being able to prepare more spells each day even if you will only ever cast a handful of them allows you to be better prepared for the encounters to come. If you know you'll encounter a specific creature or obsticle, then you can always prepare spells to deal with it and judge how many of what you need for it. But it's what you don't know about that causes trouble. A theurge can deal with the unknown much easier than a straight caster. Simply because they can prepare for more possibilities at once.
I'm still questioning that when compared to the alternative of a straight caster.  Basically, what I said before:
More concretely, how much more can the Theurgist solve with, say, with access to Wizard 3 and Cleric 3 that the Wizard (or Cleric) can with access to Wizard (Cleric) 5*?  Do you have any examples in mind? 

Hope that's helpful.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Why the urge to theurge?
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2015, 04:52:36 PM »
Wizard 4 / Cleric 4 / theurge
... is better than Adept the whole way,
just not by much early one.

Wizard 3 / Cleric 2 is > Adept 5
fronting Cleric is >> Adept, say like Cleric 3 / Wizard 3
heck Cleric 3 > Adept 5 by itself, so
Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / theurge is at least >> Adept 16
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Why the urge to theurge?
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2015, 12:22:45 AM »
A) early entry, so you're only get demoted from wizard progression (normal) to sorc progression (slow)
B) DMs who allow cohorts deserve Sam the commoner 20 builds who just so happens to have only 2 feats used but a level 19 wizard cohort with crafting XP shenanigans.

Offline Toptomcat

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Re: Why the urge to theurge?
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2015, 04:37:39 PM »
Combining power source A with power source B and looking for synergy is an act that's fundamental to min-maxing. It's an instinct that leads people astray in the case of theurgelike classes, but if they didn't have it, they wouldn't be optimizers.

Offline TuggyNE

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Re: Why the urge to theurge?
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2015, 12:38:18 PM »
Combining power source A with power source B and looking for synergy is an act that's fundamental to min-maxing. It's an instinct that leads people astray in the case of theurgelike classes, but if they didn't have it, they wouldn't be optimizers.

I think you've nailed it.
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Offline Endarire

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Re: Why the urge to theurge?
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2015, 05:43:17 PM »
Toptomcat: Agreed.  People look for patterns and synergies inherently (in games and elsewhere).  The optimizers do so more reliably and effectively.