Talking Shop: Railroading PC Creation

[Necrosnoop110]

Any of you DMs set parameters on what choices your PCs can make for your games? Like say, ok for this campaign you can only select Elf as a race (or the inverse no one can select Elf as a race). Or for another campaign, you can only start with rogue for first level. Some sort of limiting category of class, race, or other major parameter?

How is this kind of thing seen? Bad idea? Good idea? Ok sometimes? And if you have done this how did it turn out?

Thanks,
Necro

[Raineh Daze]

I've seen 'this race doesn't exist in this setting', which I wouldn't really say counts as railroading (and in other systems, I've definitely seen 'dear god no you can't play that because everyone will try and kill you). Haven't seen it turn out poorly.

Plus the campaign Libertad ran where every character had to be a spellcaster. Everyone joined knowing that was the case, though, and it was pretty central to the plot.

[Stratovarius]

I run setting restrictions, but that's not really that surprising. Created my own setting and a new set of races and base classes, after all.

But D&D does this a fair amount too - most notably with Dark Sun. It's impossible to have Templars and Arcane casters in the same party (or at least insanely difficult), and very often campaigns are either written for Templars or for the Cerulean Sign (the resistance movement), which also strongly restricts who you can be.

Usually, if done up front and with everyone's acknowledgement, it goes fine, and is usually to fit campaign/setting reasons. If it's arbitrary, then it can go wrong.

[stanprollyright]

At Roll20.net, every other campaign is "no casters."  I'm in one right now that's "all goblins, no casters" (based on Pathfinder's We Be Goblins). I've also played where everyone must be a human, but other racial stat packages are allowed and reflavored as humans from different regions/cultures.

[Unbeliever]

Races I'm pretty ok with.  Classes, much less so.  I can see classes as a means of game balance, but I think it's a very coarse and inefficient way of going about doing it, and one that unduly restricts the players.

The difference, I think, is that races exist "in the game world."  Elf, Dwarf, etc. is a concept that the people in the setting have, narratively.  Warblade and Abjurant Champion probably isn't, and certainly necessarily isn't.  From a narrative perspective, a warrior mage/gish/whatever you want to call it is all the same, regardless of what its build stub looks like.

I'm actually pretty sympathetic to trimming the number of races down in a setting.  I really like settings that have a distinct feel to them.  Even most of the D&D published game worlds end up being a bit too generic for me.  I understand why, but still.  I'll gladly take fewer race options -- especially since if there's a mechanic I somehow desperately want it's easily reskinned and refluffed -- in exchange for a distinctive game world where all the races have personalities and cultures and aren't just folks with different funky stat blocks or abilities.

[Ice9]

I think it's fine, in general, but you should take a light hand when doing it.  And definitely present it to the players as part of your initial pitch, rather than later when they've already started working on character ideas.

Personally speaking, limited races are fine.  Classes are fine when there's an in-setting reason (no divine magic in Dark Sun, for example).  Barring classes for mechanical reasons, I'm less enthused about - IME, any given class can operate at a wide range of power-levels, and having an explicit discussion about desired power-level works a lot better.  Although I'm not going to begrudge a DM for not wanting to read up on the more obscure subsystems like Truenaming. 

To a large extent, it also depends on why the change was made:
"I'm the DM so my word is law, that's all the explanation needed" -> Nope, not playing with that guy.
"Warlock is banned because it's OP" -> Big warning sign, DM has strong opinions about mechanics without strong understanding of them.  See if education works, otherwise leave.
"Easy long-distance travel methods are banned, because I want sailing around on ships to remain an important activity the whole campaign" -> Fine
"No divine magic, because we're playing Dark Sun" -> Fine
"Only LotR-like races and classes, because I want to use that setting" -> Fine.  I probably wouldn't choose to play it, but that's just because I'm burnt on that setting personally.

[Samwise]

I addressed this in another thread awhile back.

I do it constantly, and more or less harshly depending on the theme of the campaign arc I'm running.
My players are okay with it, particularly as the story develops and they see why I established some of the restrictions.

I expect that our campaign arcs usually run 1-3 years so there is always "another" campaign with another character in sight has helped keep it from being a significant problem.

[Libertad]

"Only LotR-like races and classes, because I want to use that setting" -> Fine.  I probably wouldn't choose to play it, but that's just because I'm burnt on that setting personally.

I for one refuse to play in a game where I can't be a drow or catgirl. 

But on a serious note, I find it rather funny how many folks keep trying to stick D&D mechanics in a world which doesn't really fit it.  I remember when Gygax tried to stat up Conan, and he pretty much had to do a bunch of home-created stuff existing outside the game's framework to fit the source material.  Ideally you should try playing a game with a framework tailored around said source material.  Now that the One Ring RPG is out, we don't have that excuse anymore.

[Necrosnoop110]

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm looking to have the PCs start at an arcane college of sorts and a lot of my players are reluctant to play casters. So, I was trying to get them to expand their gaming experience by softly "requiring" them to start as a caster of some sort. Ideally, have each PC specialize in a different school of magic.

Not all that original I realize but I think that my PCs would in the end have fun playing casters, I was just hoping to push their boundaries and mix things up. Plus I have a whole story-line that works better if they are part of this arcane school. Was thinking about having them start at 2nd level and requiring at least one of those two levels (and try and coach them for both) as arcane casters. Thoughts?

Thanks,
Necro   

[Raineh Daze]

Sounds like Lib's speciality after running a campaign with a similar premise.

[Libertad]

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm looking to have the PCs start at an arcane college of sorts and a lot of my players are reluctant to play casters. So, I was trying to get them to expand their gaming experience by softly "requiring" them to start as a caster of some sort. Ideally, have each PC specialize in a different school of magic.

Not all that original I realize but I think that my PCs would in the end have fun playing casters, I was just hoping to push their bounders and mix things up. Plus I have a whole story-line that works better if they are part of this arcane school. Was thinking about having them start at 2nd level and requiring at least one of those two levels (and try and coach them for both) as arcane casters. Thoughts?

Thanks,
Necro

Over on my blog I wrote a shitload of posts about magic school campaigns for different RPGs and such.  So I have a few things to ask.

Edit: If there's enough demand I might turn this into its own thread.

Are they down with it?

1.) Reluctance: What don't they like about playing casters?  Is it the option paralysis from all the spells?  Is it a preference for "badass normal" characters?  You specified arcane casters for your magic school idea.  Are they OK with clerics/druids/etc?

2.) Alternatives: Ideally you want the players to have fun, but you to have fun as well.  If you gamed with them for a time and you know each other well, then show them that you've hyped for this idea and to at least try it out.  If it's not to people's liking, you can try a different game, or better yet, run your magic school idea with a different group.

If they're down with it: Magic School advice

3.) Classes and Roles: Regarding magic school in 3.X/Pathfinder...this might sound odd, but I don't think you should limit folks to arcane casters.  Depending on the specifics of your campaign world, universities and academies probably won't limit their study solely to the arcane arts.  And why should they turn away a cleric of Boccob or mage-knight style Paladin (Sword of the Arcane Order feat from Champions of Valor is what I had in mind)?

Now, role protection in D20 D&D is less prominent, but there are some things to keep in mind.

Melee: Duskblades and Jade Phoenix Mages (Tome of Battle) are two good choices.  It's rather MAD, but a Paladin with the Sword of Arcane Order feat can use the class' slots to prepare wizard spells.  Naturally, Clerics are good at this role, and wildshaping Druids.

Skill/Roguish: Beguiler's the best choice bar none.  Certain utility features of the warlock class might be worth looking into.  Shadowbane Inquisitor.

4.) Location: At 2nd level that implies they have a low power level, I presume the PCs will be students unless having even 1 level in a PC class is a measure of greatness in your setting (like Eberron).

The thing to keep in mind with magic school campaigns are that by nature they're going to be less mobile than typical D&D adventures unless you have some Magic School Bus plot in mind.  Your magic school is likely to be in a central location, filled with a healthy host of NPCs the party may interact with multiple times.  Ensure that the school and its surrounding environs are cool and versatile enough to be filled with a lot of places to explore and plot hooks.  Hogwarts is a great example, where the entirety of its environs isn't really known and you can easily get lost in it.

For my Arcana High campaign, the majority of the campaign took place in Brancean, a metropolis modeled off of Byzantine-era Constantinople.  The school and the city grew over time as I jotted down new ideas, and I didn't map out everything ahead of time so I could come up with reasons for "new locations."

5.) Other Students and Teachers: It's 3rd party Pathfinder, but there's a variant for the Adept NPC Class which expands the role to cover magical traditions other than "village shaman."  Even at low levels, statting up a Cleric or Wizard can be a handful what with spell selection, domains, and school specialties.  And it might not make sense for teenaged apprentices straight from home knowing how to don plate armor and wield greatswords; the major thing the Variant Adept has going for it other than spells is having all Knowledge as class skills, so it works rather well for magic school campaigns.

But on that note, jot down a few NPC ideas of other students and teachers.  Don't need to fully stat them, have them show up doing stuff around the school and/or interacting in class.  If the players find them interesting in some way, they'll be more eager to get involved with plot hooks and such involving them.  Also a good way to provide some characterization to the game, where such a thing might be harder to pull off in straight dungeon crawls.

6.) Power and Trouble: In some settings, I've seen magic schools where the teachers were incredibly high-level.  Like double-digits baby.  With Dumbledore of the Potterverse being one of the greatest mages alive, it can be tempting to make the teachers and headmaster eclipse the students and PCs in magical potential by leagues.

Avoid this temptation.

Think of it this way.  At 5th level a wizard is already a healthy adept of the arcane arts, and probably knows some nifty 3rd-level spells which can be devastating to beginner-level monsters.  Their specialized skills should be hovering around +13 to +15, which is Harvard-level proficiency when it comes to Knowledge.

You need a reason for trouble to happen where the PCs can't rely upon the teachers to solve everything.  Don't worry if they start to eclipse them in power over time: around this part of the campaign is when you should step things up.  In Arcana High the academy's headmaster was 7th level, and by the time they PCs were that level they already had several in-game months of superhero exploits to their name and had to go out and stop the fallen gold dragon Dorethal from an evil plot which put the entire region at risk.

The early arc of the campaign can be conceivably played as a "school, but with dungeon crawls and magic duels" style at first, but as the PCs gain levels don't be afraid to gradually broaden the scope of events.  As Arcana High was also a "fantasy superhero" game in the vein of Tolkienien Spider-Man/X-Men, this worked quite nicely as the party had to keep up their secret identity as Ordinary High School Students.

7.) Shameless Self-Promotion.  If you can wait, I'm currently in the process of writing Arcana High, a four-part Adventure Path for Pathfinder where the PCs are magic school students battling bad guys and threats in a fantasy metropolis under alternate identities gained from magical relics.  As I'm still in the writing part (but made significant inroads on Book 2) I can't say when it will be released.

Also, my blog posts titled "Arcana High" are a collection of magic school campaign posts.

Inspirational Material

Harry Potter, Perhaps the most famous example, the books chronicle the adventures of the eponymous character and his friends in a wondrous world of witchcraft and wizardry. In addition to dealing with all the other troubles a student his age gets into, he also repeatedly thwarts the plots of the evil wizard Lord Voldemort and his minions.

Kill La Kill, if you want your school to be one of hard knocks with a seinen fighting anime premise.

Zero no Tsukaima (First Season or Light Novel).  It tells the story of a teenager from modern-day Japan who ends up summoned by the wizard Louise into a fantasy realm to serve as her familiar. The format of a traditional classic heroic fantasy, combined with elements of slice-of-life romantic comedy set around a magic school served as great inspiration for my campaign.

Little Witch Academia: A short film by Studio Trigger, it too is located in a magic school and whose protagonist, a young witch named Akko, takes out a magic-eating dragon unleashed from the expansive dungeon underneath the academy. Akko's friend Sucy is pretty much the archetypical Pathfinder alchemist, too.

Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3: A video game RPG, the player takes the role of a Japanese high school student who joins SEES, an extra-curricular group of students investigating a phenomenon known as The Dark Hour and the nightmarish world it spawns. Populated by entities known as Shadows which feed upon human minds in the real world, SEES regularly battles these entities at night while living the lives of normal teenagers by day. The Persona series is also known for its Social Links system, where developing relationships with friends and fellow party members grant mechanical benefits in the form of stronger Personas, or monstrous entities bonded to the hero.

Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al-Revis: Student at magic alchemy academy needs to pass her grades and get money or end jobless and flunked!

Redhurst Academy of Magic: A D20 System book published way back in 2003, Redhurst is a mini-setting book detailing a prestigious wizard’s academy which can travel through dimensions and to other campaign settings. Its extensive layout of memorable NPCs, sample classes and schools, and new spells detailed for a school setting (an alarm clock spell, snowball spell, etc) make it a rather unique 3rd party product for Dungeons & Dragons.

Batman & Spider-Man: For the colorful cast of villains, if you decide to follow in my footsteps of a fantasy superhero campaign.

There's also Sigantium: Academy of the Arcane, an upcoming campaign setting for different Editions of D&D.  It's old but Redhurst back in 2003 had a similar premise.  Hasn't been released yet, so I can't comment on the quality one way or another.

In Conclusion

The Magic School format has been one of the most rewarding campaigns I've ever ran as a DM.  It definitely has a non-standard formula, but it really opens a whole world of options.  If every PC is a spellcaster, that opens up a versatile grab-bag of tricks for them and keeps combat interesting.  It also allows for a bunch of great role-playing material, as the set-up is tailor-made for recurring characters, and sticking to one location over the course of a campaign allows for the players to grow fond of and care for the school and its people.  It also grants you the opportunity to insert light-hearted events such as school plays, parties, academic rivals, and forays into the Library's Forbidden Section.

[Necrosnoop110]

Woah! Thanks Libertad. Awesomesauce!

Might be too "modern" for a lot of D&D tables but might I suggest The Magicians by Lev Grossman for your Inspirational Material.

[stanprollyright]

3.) Classes and Roles:
Skill/Roguish: Beguiler's the best choice bar none.  Certain utility features of the warlock class might be worth looking into.  Shadowbane Inquisitor

WHAT ABOUT BARDS?

[Nifft]

For Clerics:
- Cloistered Clerics ought to be common.
- Any Cleric with the Spell or Magic domain would have a good reason to study arcane magic.
- Similarly, any Cleric with the Divine Magician alternate feature.

For Rogues:
- Beguilers, yeah. They're awesome.
- Spellthief 1 / Wizard++, there ought to be at least one.
- I bet there's a Cha + Dex Rogue with Sleight of Hand and Use Magic Device who's just faking it for giggles.
- Bards. I guess. If you need dancing boys.

I bet the janitor is a Sorcerer who flunked out after turning in the same spell-essay five times in a row. Now he floats around and his army of Unseen Servants cleans everything up.

[Keldar]

"Only LotR-like races and classes, because I want to use that setting" -> Fine.  I probably wouldn't choose to play it, but that's just because I'm burnt on that setting personally.

I for one refuse to play in a game where I can't be a drow or catgirl. 

(click to show/hide)

Ice9 summed up my feelings on the subject succinctly.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Keldar stop winning the internet. Drow catgirls, honestly.

[Lokiyn]

Yes, i generally don't allow full casters (classes that get 9th level spells) as a rule of thumb because i'm not confident enough to run a mixed tier game, nor react quickly enough to full casters to not slow the game down while i formulate a response. But i'm upfront about it when i put together a CC guideline. Which isn't to say no one can play casters, its just that i'm going to openly admit that i'm probably going have trouble finding that sweet spot where encounters are challenging without being murderous or cakewalks, since i'm better at the back-end of things with setting design rather than the on the fly adjustments you need as a dm.

But i'm not going to be like those nimrods who say "if you want to be fighter (concept) you have to take the fighter class" bards and rogues make perfectly good fighters, conversely if you want to be a fighter (class) and call yourself a bard that's fine as well, there isn't magical glowing windows above everyone's heads afterall.