Fun Finds v6.0

[SorO_Lost]

Much like SorO, you're operating at a misconception at the fundamental level of the conversation.

Not really Loki, it seems everyone (and that includes you) have all agreed on DCs & cross-List abuse but are arguing about what the topic is or what title should be assigned.

Also, Sanctum Spell does not allow you to craft a 4th level Spell into a potion. There is so much wrong with that statement. Requirements are not effects, you cannot learn a Spell called "Sanctum Spell Stoneskin" or whatever because Spell+Feat!=NewSpell, and Potions are not Spells to begin with to even claim you can apply Metamagic Feats.

A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute.

It never claims it is or casts a Spell. You're thinking of Spell Completion/Trigger items, such as Scrolls or such. Except Sanctum Spell still doesn't work like how you're trying to use it. Like it uses the same exact Slot, so Sanctum Fireball on Mars is treated as a 2nd level Spell but it still uses a 3rd level Slot and requires 13 in your casting Ability Score. So obviously it's not a full on conversion that you think it is, you've arbitrary drawn a line in the sand where you think it's level is different and where it serves your purposes, but wording of the entry directs the line to be placed else where. *sigh*

Also the scrolling text is stupid. Congratulations on being the guy that brings the phase "annoying ad alerts" to a post.

[Amechra]

Actually...

Quick Potion lets you make (temporary) potions of 4th level spells using Sanctum Spell. You don't even need to spend any XP!


But, to further specify my question:

Does it ever actually say what the minimum CL is for, say, a Wizard? I mean, they can't cast 4th level spells prior to 7th level normally, but they also happen to lack spell slots of that level before that point, so it's kinda unknown if the CL is the real restriction there...

(Let's put it this way. I'm 21 years old in the US, so I can buy booze. However, I don't actually get the chance to buy booze until I'm 27. It's not like pulling out a fake ID that said I was 25 would prevent me from buying booze in the future, right?)


@Lokiyn It only works if your DM lets you decompose magic items to calculate their Save DC. By RAW, you would just apply your ability modifier, so your example (the Shadow Evocation scroll) would have a DC of 12. If you want it metamagic'd... go find an artificer or take levels in Unbound Scroll or something.

[SorO_Lost]

But, to further specify my question:

Sometimes people forget that D&D is not a legal document but descriptive text. And because of that, they forget that when the SRD attempted to boiled things down to pure mechanics, they actually cut a sizable potion out of the game out.

For example, here part of the actual entry on caster level.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).

The blue text that entirely enforces the concept that it's tied to the default Spell progression and how you cannot cast a 3rd level spell if your CL is below 5, thus answering your question, was removed in the SRD's version.

[Amechra]

Thus answering my question.

[Lokiyn]

Oh really? Let me call this bs out

Here is the original post

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.... hold on a tick

hmmmmm
Couldn't you combine this with awaken, or shadowcraft tricks, to deliberately lower the DC of certain items? For example if you use the cooperative creation rules from the dmg

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary, such as if one character knows some of the spells necessary to create an item and another character knows the rest.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. (It’s generally sensible, although not mandatory, for the highest-level character involved to be considered the creator.) The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

and feeblemind your familiar couldn't you change the formula to the following

SL	CL	IM	DC
0.5	1	-5	5
1	1	-5	6
2	3	-5	7
3	5	-5	8
4	7	-5	9
5	9	-5	10
6	11	-5	11
7	13	-5	12
8	15	-5	13
9	17	-5	14

Making Awaken much easier to cast from a scroll and it easier to disbelieve shadow conjurations from scrolls.

And here is SorO_Lost's "well considered" response

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Couldn't you combine this with awaken, or shadowcraft tricks, to deliberately lower the DC of certain items?

Not really.

First Spells have a minimum CL.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

And if those conditions cannot be met.

If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.

Secondary, the CL entry isn't a suggestion that you can passively ignore. It's a requirement.

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

And here is the MiC's updated text on the subject of multiple crafters.

All items have prerequisites in their descriptions.These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time they take the form of feats and spells that the item's creator must know, although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed. It's perfectly acceptable for two or more characters to work together to create a magic item, with each character supplying some of the prerequisites. (In all places where this text refers to the "creator" of a magic item, it includes all characters supplying at least one prerequisite [or the item's creation.) The XP cost must always be paid by the character who supplies the item creation feat required by the item, no matter how many other characters cooperate in its creation.

You're still technically allowed to the CL of anyone in the party, but the wording more strongly reflects meeting the requirements opposed to the pick and choose method the first iteration might seem to suggest to you. So calling back to the other rules, the minimum CL must be met by your choice or you can't make the item.

And @Link, fixed it.

So in a discussion on the Enhance item Feat I brought up the idea of using feeblemind and a cooperative crafter to create an item where the save DC formula is explicitly modified [Keldar ] by the feat and set to the lowest possible DC.

You then proceeded to invent whole cloth a whole list of nonsense about caster level that has as little to do with the conversation as claiming that a barbarian can rage is why wizards wear robes.

no one at any point was arguing about "titles" or "decomposing items" this was simply Enhance item + the core rules on magic item DC

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SAVING THROWS AGAINST MAGIC ITEM POWERS
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. For example, a 2nd-level spell’s save DC would be 10 + 2 (for the spell being 2nd level) + 1 (for needing at least a 12 in the relevant ability score to cast a 2nd-level spell), or a total of 13.
Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC. For example, if Devis the bard triggers charm person from a staff of charming, it will have a save DC of 14 because Devis has a Charisma of 17. If Mialee the wizard triggers charm person from the same staff, it has a DC of 16 because her Intelligence score is 18 and she has the Spell Focus (enchantment) feat. Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent(making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly).

Any yes, yes i can make a 4th level spell into a potion with sanctum spell or with other methods, let me go step by step; i'll even use the extra legal way

• Our wizard wants to create a potion of a fourth level spell he knows, unfortunately he cannot normally do so because of the limits of brew potion. So he has the option of modifying the spell OR modifying the feat; in this case we are going to work on the spell
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  You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes one day. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price. here is the relevant text from brew potion
• So our wizard uses the metamagic feat sanctum spell on his spell (lets pick Animate Dead); Does this spell meet the requirements for brew potion? No of course not, "but wait" you say "i thought the whole point of this was to show that sanctum spell can make it qualify", indeed but not necessarily like that. See metamagic feats actually affect spell slots and spell level independently.
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  Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell
  
  In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
  The modifications made by these feats only apply to spells cast directly by the feat user. A spellcaster can’t use a metamagic feat to alter a spell being cast from a wand, scroll, or other device.
  Metamagic feats that eliminate components of a spell don’t eliminate the attack of opportunity provoked by casting a spell while threatened. However, casting a spell modified by Quicken Spell does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
  Metamagic feats cannot be used with all spells. See the specific feat descriptions for the spells that a particular feat can’t modify.
  Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell
  
  A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.
  Magic Items and Metamagic Spells
  
  With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
  Moreover other than the effect of changing the spell slot, metamagic feats affects come into play when the spell is cast, not when it is prepared (with the exception of the spell slot changes) So our Sanctum Spell (Animate Dead) fills a 4th level spell slot, and is still a fourth level spell; which although the rest of the requirements (Target / caster level) have been met for a third level potion, the spell level is still one too high
• Now, our wizard casts his Sanctum Animate Dead, but not on himself, oh no. Our wizard casts the spell into a ring of spell storing, minor
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  A spellcaster can cast any spells into the ring, so long as the total spell levels do not add up to more than three. Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat. A spellcaster can use a scroll to put a spell into the minor ring of spell storing.
  and Sanctum spell provides us with
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  sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level.
• Our wizard now has a spell explicitly modified by the act of casting and the sanctum metamagic feat to have an effective spell level of 3 for all effects. So we combine that with the complete rules for cooperative crafting
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  This section reiterates the basics of magic item creation; for more details on creating the different types of magic items, see the information on item creation feats in Chapter 5 of the Player’s Handbook, as well as the appropriate sections in Chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide.

  If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), must provide any material components or focuses the spells require, and must pay any XP costs required for the spells. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

  (it’s basically identical for each item creation entry in the DMG) One could make the case that putting the spell in the ring is unnecessary due to the last line in the creation entries in the dmg, but we are going with the explicitly legal version rather than the implicitly legal version
• So let’s look at our spell, it is now treated in all ways as having a spell level of 3 (down from 4); it targets one or more creature (personal), and it has a caster level of at least 3 (the minimum for a 3rd level potion); this spell now qualifies for the brew potion feat, via the DMG it is explicitly allowed item sources for creation

  although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed

  The end result is as follows

  Potion of Animate Dead [3rd]
  This potion allows the caster to prepare up to three extra levels of spells or retain any spell of 3rd level or lower cast up to 1 round before the consumption of the potion. Market; 1050 gp.
  Cost to Create 525gp + 42xp

Now most of the time there is little point to this, except in the case that you need very specific spell, or you need a spell that has been modified by a specific class feature or set of feats, on the other hand if you table out the results you can see that there are a bit of savings to be had in item creation.

Orig	Sanctum	CL	Market		DIF		Market	CL	SL
0.5	????	1	???				375	1	0.5
1	0.5	1	375		375		750	1	1
2	1	3	2250		2250		4500	3	2
3	2	5	7500		3750		11250	5	3
4	3	7	15750		5250		21000	7	4
5	4	9	27000

So a Spell stored 4th level sanctum spell stored then used to create 3rd level wands of the resulting spell would save you 5,250 gp per wand, which pays for itself on the 4th such wand created (spell storing 18k/5)

Basically sanctum spell + spell storing would net you anywhere from 11%-50% savings in item creation based explicitly on spell level with an average of 25% over the course of the level 1-9 spell levels.

So,

your point on potions is invalid,

your attempt to use caster level in lieu of DC is invalid (and still makes no sense whatsoever). As your claim that you couldn't use enhance item to lower the dc of magic items because spells have a minimum caster level has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

and the whole spell slots thing with item creation makes no sense whatsoever as spell slots is not part of the item creation (and given that you can prepare lower level spells in higher level spell slots negates quite a bit of that nonsense) As your claim that a 3rd level spell in a 4th level slot would be treated as a fourth level spell

Sanctum Spell still doesn't work like how you're trying to use it. Like it uses the same exact Slot, so Sanctum Fireball on Mars is treated as a 2nd level Spell but it still uses a 3rd level Slot and requires 13 in your casting Ability Score.

(no, a Sanctum fireball would have a minimum ability score of 12 when cast as ability score minimums are based on spell level, not spell slots)

Spell Slots: The various character class tables in Chapter 3: Classes show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. For example, a 7th-level wizard has at least one 4th-level spell slot and two 3rd-level spell slots (see Table 3–18: The Wizard, page 55). However, the character could choose to prepare three 3rd-level spells instead, filling the 4th-level slot with a 3rdlevel spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

Hence the whole "operating on a misconception on a fundamental level"

[SorO_Lost]

Oh really? Let me call this bs out

Wow, I've never seen some a poorly constructed argument in my life.

You didn't even touch on the problems I called out with Sanctum Spell from before or even how Potions are not Spell, your version of support comes from a specific Ring and the not even really supportive Armor rules while talking about Potions and of all the possible Spell choices are there you just had to pick the one that implies a corpse can drink a Potion to animate it's self. 

And you're still going on about lower DCs. Why would you ever want a lower Save DC. Ever? As already brought up you can use alternative Spell Lists for earlier access to Spells just fine, but you'd still want the DC on those to be as high as possible. Outside of the few specific Special Abilities or Wondrous Items that have a higher DC'ed greater version, adjusting the DC of an item has no reflection on cost. There is literally nothing to gain with a lower DC in the slightest.

But you seem to be hung up on "when you create an item with that feat, adjust the DC for saving throws required by the magic item, if any, by your key ability modifier." and it's role in multiple crafters instead of the both pronouns or even the rest of the text.

Enhance Item [Item Creation]
You can increase the minimum DC for saving throws of magic items you create.
Prerequisite: Any other item creation feat,
Benefit: Choose any item creation feat you already know. When you create an item with that feat, adjust the DC for saving throws required by the magic item, if any, by your key ability modifier.

It doesn't say "when you help someone" now does it? So honestly, where in the rules does it ever imply that the 3rd Edition Feat Enhance Item allows you to invalidate the 3.5 Edition of the creation prerequisite rules just because more than one person helps out? And it even directly implies you can't use it to decrease a DC to begin with.

Your post... Is just a mess.

[Amechra]

It seems like he wants the DC for Shadow Evocations and the like to be really low. Which is dumb, because you aren't casting them, therefore you can't apply your class features that make your spells more real.

Also, again: @LOKIYN: Applying Enhance Item in a way that would apply a negative ability modifier would just subtract that ability modifier from the DC. It would not modify the abstracted-away ability modifier already included in the DC, which is really just some reverse engineering. The numbers SorO gave are more useful for a homebrewer or a DM who wants to eyeball a DC for a custom magic item.

However, your Sanctum example would actually work (but is kinda dumb) - to reference the rest of the paragraph that SorO quoted for the CL restriction:

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

That seems to imply that you can make a potion of, say, Extended Enlarge Person. Since Sanctum Spell modifies the spell level, it would work. It's niche, though - just grab an Eternal Wand of Quick Potion and cast your Sanctum Spells into that.

[Keldar]

none of which explains where the hell caster level came into a discussion of difficulty check.
@ Keldar, you really haven't read the posts above have you? Much like SorO, you're operating at a misconception at the fundamental level of the conversation.
There is a specific Feat Enhance Item that allows you to use your casting stat modifier, rather than the default formula for magic item creation.

The point of the whole conversation was to point out that you can use this to boost the static dc's of some weapon traits, as well as lower the DC for certain items, if you had a situation where you want it to be easier to resist an effect.

For example, I as a shadowcraft gnome build, want to make my shadow effects as low dc as possible, so normally if i wanted to make a scroll of shadow evocation the DC would be

10+2+5 = 17

Too high

So i use my enhance item feat and cooperative crafting to modify the int modifier from +2 to -5 using feeble mind or some other trick

10+(-5)+5 = 10

Better, however i want it still lower so i use a sanctum spell version of the spell instead of the normal effect

10+(-5)+4 = 9

lowering the Items difficulty check by 9 points and the caster level to 7 rather than 9


as you said "Really basic stuff."


anyway,

If you want to lower the caster level, one of the better ways is to use the sanctum spell metamagic feat, which lowers the spell level for the effect (although it doesn't change the slots you need to use). Which would allow you the ability to craft say a 4th level spell into a potion (as it is now considered 3rd level spell) which lowers the minimum caster level from 7 to 5 allowing you some decent savings.

none of which explains where the hell caster level came into a discussion of difficulty check.

Item won't function.  Set attribute is too low for the spell.  The item doesn't inherit any of your class abilities anyway, so the low DC would be counterproductive, you are not casting a spell.

[Nytemare3701]

Item won't function.  Set attribute is too low for the spell.  The item doesn't inherit any of your class abilities anyway, so the low DC would be counterproductive, you are not casting a spell.

Replace Enhance Item with Truename then. It explicitly says the item treats you as the caster of the spell for all purposes.

[SorO_Lost]

That seems to imply that you can make a potion of, say, Extended Enlarge Person. Since Sanctum Spell modifies the spell level, it would work. It's niche, though - just grab an Eternal Wand of Quick Potion and cast your Sanctum Spells into that.

Except Sanctum doesn't work on Potion like thats, which is another little point he's hitting up and not understanding.

But I think you can grasp the problem with it. Sanctum Spell is not a +1 or -1 level Metamagic, it's +0. When you cast it, depending on the area, it modifies the effective level for calculations by +1 or -1.

A sanctum spell has an effective spell level one level higher than normal if cast in your sanctum (see Special, below)--but if not cast in the sanctum, it has an effective spell level one level lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (such as save DCs or the ability to penetrate a minor globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level, modified by any other metamagic feats.

So for example CL5 Wand of Sanctum Fireball is still a 3rd level Spell. And if your first reaction is to say "but not when you cast it!", then you're hitting the nail on the head even as you fail to see why.

Lokiyn tried going the route that Potions are Spell-Storing items, IE you're not creating a Magic Item but casting a Spell into the item and later when used you cast the stored spell again. Like how Rings of Spell Storing specifically state you can cast the Spells stored in it. And while Potions, even Quick Potion, do imply they function like Storing because you have to expend the Spell for it (as with all other items), the actual rules entry of Potions prove that concept of thought is incorrect.

A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute.

Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target.

While Potions are like Spells, and maybe there can be a misconception they are like Spell Storing Items, but they are not and all they really are is a magical liquid that invokes the effect of a Spell and that's what you're actually crafting. So is a Potion of Sanctum Spell (lol) Animate Dead 3rd, 4th, or 5th level? Well, until it's cast it's 4th level and 4th level Spells can not be made into a Potion.

Are you picking up what I'm laying down?

[linklord231]

Enhance Item [Item Creation]
You can increase the minimum DC for saving throws of magic items you create.
Prerequisite: Any other item creation feat,
Benefit: Choose any item creation feat you already know. When you create an item with that feat, adjust the DC for saving throws required by the magic item, if any, by your key ability modifier.

It doesn't say "when you help someone" now does it? So honestly, where in the rules does it ever imply that the 3rd Edition Feat Enhance Item allows you to invalidate the 3.5 Edition of the creation prerequisite rules just because more than one person helps out? And it even directly implies you can't use it to decrease a DC to begin with.

If Frank and John work together to create an item, then Frank is creating the item and John is also creating the item.  Frank could supply the item creation feat (modified by Enhance Item), and John could supply the spell.  Since Frank is supplying the Enhance Item feat, it's his key ability score that modifies the item's save DC, because that's what Enhance Item says to do, even though John might have a different save DC for his spells. 

It doesn't matter if the short description of the feat implies the DC can only go up, the "Benefit" section says it can go either way, and that's the rule that matters.  That's part of the Primary Source rule.

Why/Whether anyone would want to make a weaker version of an item is entirely irrelevant. 

[SorO_Lost]

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It doesn't matter if the short description of the feat implies the DC can only go up, the "Benefit" section says it can go either way, and that's the rule that matters.  That's part of the Primary Source rule.

Negative ghostrider, and I was wondering when you'd hop in since you love showing up on the tail end of a debate and immediately siding against me. Now for one thing there is no such thing as primary/secondary, the notation of such only appeared in the core errata and does not even appear in following Errata, in addition the RC supersedes just about everything so you trying to bring up archaic depreciated rules just makes you look like you can't keep up to a stagnant rule system that you've been posting in for over a decade. The order of rules application is general, specific, and exception.

Secondarily, let's follow through these motions ok?

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Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.

You assume that you can ignore the rules on Magic Item DCs and Spellcasting having a required minimum value even through Enhance Item provides no noted exception to this.

Enhance Item [Item Creation]
You can increase the minimum DC for saving throws of magic items you create.
Prerequisite: Any other item creation feat,
Benefit: Choose any item creation feat you already know. When you create an item with that feat, adjust the DC for saving throws required by the magic item, if any, by your key ability modifier.

* You assume the single pronoun requirement that Enhance Item can be met when helping someone else create an item can be met regardless of role even has you place massively emphasis and the team-incompatible second usage of the word 'you'.
* You assume the 3.0 based Feat is 110% compatible with the 3.5 rule system but whereas 3.5 says "(although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)" allowing multiple crafters, I can prove that part doesn't exist in 3rd (link) which means there isn't such a thing as multiple crafters to Enhance Item.
* You assume Enhance Item's notation of "increase" should actually mean "decrease" but sure the hell can't prove that either.

All items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time they take the form of feats and spells that the item's creator must know, although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed. It's perfectly acceptable for two or more characters to work together to create a magic item, with each character supplying some of the prerequisites. (In all places where this text refers to the "creator" of a magic item, it includes all characters supplying at least one prerequisite [or the item's creation.) The XP cost must always be paid by the character who supplies the item creation feat required by the item, no matter how many other characters cooperate in its creation.

Prerequisites: The feats, spells, or other prerequisites required of the creator of the item.

FEARSOME
Price: +15,000 gp
Property: Armor or shield
Caster Level: 7th
Aura:Moderate; (DC 18) necromancy
Activation: swift (command)
This item is dark in color, and anyone viewing it sees fleeting, grotesque images on its surface.

When you activate armor or a shield that has this property, you create an aura of terror in a 20-foot radius around yourself. Every creature in this area briefly perceives a creature from its worst night nightmare instead of you, becoming panicked for 1 round. On a successful DC 16 Will save, the creature is shaken for 1 round instead.

The fearsome property functions three times per day.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fear.
Cost 10 Create: 7,500 gp, 600 XP, 15 days.

* You assume that the Spell portion of the Requirement can be further split into multiple roles with the caster supplying the Spell but someone else entirely supplying the DC even through according to the rules the entire Spell portion is performed by a single person.
* And you assume Enhance Item creates an exception to all of this and more even through it isn't worded as such.

And you never once stop to think ASS-U-ME doesn't have as much weight as you think it does.

So if I come along and assert that to properly use Enhance Item you actually have to be the guy that fulfills the Spell Requirement, I actually make sense with zero assumptions.  And there isn't really a thing you can use to prove me otherwise.

In fact, if you drop off your vehicle for repairs you don't expect the tire guy to rewire the internal components of the starter which is pretty much what you're doing when you assume the guy with the role of supplying the Feats & XP is tinker'ing with someone else's end product. The analogy is perfect because

DMs are expected to use knowledge of existing rules, common sense, real world knowledge, and a sense of fun when dealing with such special cases.

With it you've violated all four forms of how you're supposed to adjudicate the rules. You know, in case you missed the whole Occam's Razor & you can't prove me wrong part & as a matter of fact I can prove some of your assumptions wrong. 

The creatures Heavenly Host and Hellish Horde summon always obey you and can never attack you even if someone else were to dominate them. Use Quintessence to stockpile an army to make your next Enchanter/Vampire fight a walk in the park.

[Nytemare3701]

(click to show/hide)

When did Voldemort get here??

The creatures Heavenly Host and Hellish Horde summon always obey you and can never attack you even if someone else were to dominate them. Use Quintessence to stockpile an army to make your next Enchanter/Vampire fight a walk in the park.

Niiiiice. I know what I'm doing with my downtime now.

[linklord231]

It doesn't matter if the short description of the feat implies the DC can only go up, the "Benefit" section says it can go either way, and that's the rule that matters.  That's part of the Primary Source rule.

Negative ghostrider, and I was wondering when you'd hop in since you love showing up on the tail end of a debate and immediately siding against me. Now for one thing there is no such thing as primary/secondary, the notation of such only appeared in the core errata and does not even appear in following Errata, in addition the RC supersedes just about everything so you trying to bring up archaic depreciated rules just makes you look like you can't keep up to a stagnant rule system that you've been posting in for over a decade. The order of rules application is general, specific, and exception.

I only side against you when you're wrong.  And usually, even when you are wrong, you at least put together a decent argument for why you might be right.  Lately though, you haven't even been trying.  Like just now when you tried to throw out the primary source rule because it isn't in the Rules Compendium.  Last I checked, the rules are additive - all the relevant rules apply, unless specifically changed by a later source.  Picking and choosing which rules to use just makes you look like you're deliberately obfuscating the truth because you know you're wrong.

[Amechra]

Oy vey, people, can you take the bitch-fest to a new thread? Pretty please?


An oldie but goodie - Mounted Fury is hilarious, since your mount gets all of the benefits and drawbacks you get from Rage.

All of them.

A fun combo is Strength of the Charger + Mounted Fury = you essentially apply your Con bonus from Rage to your Fortitude saves twice.

[SorO_Lost]

Oy vey, people, can you take the bitch-fest to a new thread? Pretty please?

We're on page 49 and like 16 posts in. Technically we have to start a new thread anyway
(and I think I'm off to gather the links for it)

Annnd it's up. I may have started working on it last night knowing how close we were.
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=16695.new#new

[Lokiyn]

Ok the let me make it even simpler

SorO_Lost makes the claim that you cannot lower the [Difficulty Class] of an item, because you cannot lower the [caster level] below that necessary to cast the [spell slot].

This argument makes no sense whatsoever as [caster level] is in no way involved in [difficulty checks], A CL20, SL 3 spell has a DC of 10+3+1=14, a CL5, SL 3 spell has a DC of 10+3+1=14. Which is infuriatingly Nonsensical, so keep dancing around that. Quite frankly it makes the same argument value as claiming 1$ bill is more valuable than a 1$ coin because green is a higher frequency color than yellow. So what I’m going on about is the blatantly deceptive nonsense

Now as for sanctum spell, it doesn’t matter if its potions or wands scrolls, that is [completely] irrelevant to this particular discussion; what is important is making sure that the spell to be used in the item creation process meets the guidelines for items creation.

Now

As stated before, Animate Dead is a 4th level spell, that takes up a 4th level slot (for wizards) again,
[Spell Slots] and [Spell Levels] are two separate concepts they are often linked but are two separate concepts.

Now there was a specific reason that I brought out the spell storing ring; Now in this case we are talking about metamagic, but it is comes up in other ways in other issues. But in this case we’ll look at metamagic only.

Now as you seem to completely miss the reason for the ring is to activate sanctum spell.

Now, First I will address your complete nonsense about the Enhance item and ability scores, to wit

Item won't function.  Set attribute is too low for the spell.  The item doesn't inherit any of your class abilities anyway, so the low DC would be counterproductive, you are not casting a spell.

So for this issue, you claim that sanctum spell would not lower the spell level because it is not being cast during the process, if that is true, then ability score is no longer relevant to the item creation if this is false then the argument that sanctum spell cannot lower the level of the spell on its own during item creation falls apart.

Note that use of a magic item such as a potion/scroll/wand does not fall under the same rules as spellcasters actually casting the spell,  it falls under “Using Magic items” which do not share the limitations on “casting”

And if you missed the point with the potions any harder you’d be playing another edition, At no point did I say that, and you continually and persistently miss the point.
magic item creation does not care about spell slots
magic item creation does care about spell Levels

Metamagic feats do not alter the spell level, but do alter the spell slots, this is explicitly called out in the metamagic section, but, when an item creator creates a scroll/potion/wand while embedding the metamagic feat to the item, it alters the spell level for the purposes of item creation.


So lets review the parameters of the problem

The goal is to lower the caster level of a higher level spell to within the range acceptable for the item creation feat (scrolls/potions/wand)
The claim that the effects of the metamagic don’t come into effect until after the spell is cast so sanctum spell doesn’t work (note that I specifically called this out above)

Moreover other than the effect of changing the spell slot, metamagic feats affects come into play when the spell is cast, not when it is prepared (with the exception of the spell slot changes) So our Sanctum Spell (Animate Dead) fills a 4th level spell slot, and is still a fourth level spell; which although the rest of the requirements (Target / caster level) have been met for a third level potion, the spell level is still one too high

So in order to make this work, one would need some way cast the spell (thus allowing the metamagic feat (and by extension any class abilities that require one to cast a spell)) then capture it in some manner.
Oh wait

Now, our wizard casts his Sanctum Animate Dead, but not on himself, oh no. Our wizard casts the spell into a ring of spell storing, minor

A spellcaster can cast any spells into the ring, so long as the total spell levels do not add up to more than three. Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat. A spellcaster can use a scroll to put a spell into the minor ring of spell storing.

So lets look at the result
You now have a spell that has been cast triggering any modifiers from class or feats and can be recast from the ring.

So our spell (in this case animate dead) has been explicitly reduced by one level by the casting of the spell modified by the metamagic feat, since the metamagic feat doesn’t modify the precast spell. As such the spell (now at spell level 3) qualifies for storage and is placed in the ring.
The rest is mostly academic. Once the spell has been reduced to by a level you use the item as the spell source rather than yourself, As explicitly allowed under the DMG Magic Item creation rules.


SolO_Lost somehow seem to believe that modifying the difficulty check of the item somehow affects the caster level of the item
SolO_Lost is somehow failing to actually bother to understand what’s going on, so smaller words’


Wizard casts 4th level spell into spell storing ring
Metamagic Triggers reducing the spell level to 3
Crafter crafts item using reduced spell level spell from spell storing item


Linklord already pointed out the flaw in your argument against enhance item

(Oh, and I screwed up when posted, I had a second string that involved using rapid spell and sanctum spell to make some fast recovery potions with Mnemonic Enhancer, but it involved some other methods including arcane thesis. so i cut it out and forgot to replace that block with the other example.

So please

Explain why lowering the DC is impossible because caster level limits
Explain why explicitly lowering a spell by 1 level then using that to craft cheaper items is impossible

Although one of the more interesting finds was that sorcerers are more expensive item crafters than wizards due to page 89 of the phb where

The caster level must be high enough that the spellcaster creating the item can cast the spell at that level

Which since sorceres gain access to spells 1 level slower than wizards, means that their items would cost a small but measureably larger amount than wizards.

Look there are combos that i don't necessarily like, but i don't try and pretend the rules don't allow it because i don't like it. The rules are pretty black and white here.

If you cast a sanctum spell (outside), it drops the spell level by 1
You must cast the spell to place it in a spell storing ring.
You may use spells from a magic item to create an item.
You use the now reduced level spell to create the item.

*edit*
Really the only thing not explicitly allowed would be whether or not modifications to the spell from things other than metamagic feats are stored in the spell storing rings, although it is implicit it isn't specifically called out.

Also lets point out that the epic handbook was updated to 3.5
Also i'd need to dig out the actual DMG 3.0 since as you can't bitch about the srd being incomplete and the use it to justify a non existent point

[SorO_Lost]

SorO_Lost makes the claim that you cannot lower the [Difficulty Class] of an item, because you cannot lower the [caster level] below that necessary to cast the [spell slot].

Ahh, so you haven't been reading my posts at all before responding, well that explains a lot.

[zook1shoe]

Let's post in the new thread, since it's already up