Errata: No Time Traits

[X-Codes]

This was clearly designed to have a cool, little twist where adventurers can jump to another plane and come back, their adventure completed, in the span of one Material Plane hour or so, but that just hasn't been the practical impact of this very bad rule.

What would be the impact on the game of removing this altogether?  Making time 1:1 on any plane, especially ones created via Genesis.

[oslecamo]

Removing it from genesis wouldn't be errata. That's how it already works, since nowhere in the spell says you can give it particular time traits.

Otherwise yes, no good has ever come from that. May as well errata that SLAs ignore exp/gold costs, no good has come from that as well.

[Bozwevial]

Removing it from genesis wouldn't be errata. That's how it already works, since nowhere in the spell says you can give it particular time traits.

Not really. The psionic version explicitly prohibits you from doing it, but the arcane spell is a lot more open-ended. No rule says you can swing your sword on a Sunday and all that.

That said, you're probably not going to miss time traits very much.

[oslecamo]

Removing it from genesis wouldn't be errata. That's how it already works, since nowhere in the spell says you can give it particular time traits.

Not really. The psionic version explicitly prohibits you from doing it, but the arcane spell is a lot more open-ended. No rule says you can swing your sword on a Sunday and all that.

The rules also don't say humans cannot grow fifty heads and gain +50 to str as a free action, but I don't know many people who would try to argue that.

[Bozwevial]

Removing it from genesis wouldn't be errata. That's how it already works, since nowhere in the spell says you can give it particular time traits.

Not really. The psionic version explicitly prohibits you from doing it, but the arcane spell is a lot more open-ended. No rule says you can swing your sword on a Sunday and all that.

The rules also don't say humans cannot grow fifty heads and gain +50 to str as a free action, but I don't know many people who would try to argue that.

They also don't have text indicating humans can alter their bodies "reflecting most any desire [they] can visualize" or "determine factors such as," followed by a list of physical traits.

In any case, it's debatable enough that they felt the need to patch it out when they wrote the psionic version.

[SorO_Lost]

In any case, it's debatable enough that they felt the need to patch it out when they wrote the psionic version.

Assuming the cared enough to even read the already published books (and most people are convinced otherwise).

And no it's not debatable. Debatable is something like "Genesis: you define all traits in the plane, such as <list of X>", but guess what. It never says that. It lists exactly what you can do and the time trait isn't one of them. End of story.

What you're essentially trying to say is the Psionic version of Fighter (psychic warrior) gets Power Points and the non-psionic version (fighter) doesn't say he don't. Therefor it is debatable that Fighter gets Power Points.

[Mooncrow]

In any case, it's debatable enough that they felt the need to patch it out when they wrote the psionic version.

Assuming the cared enough to even read the already published books (and most people are convinced otherwise).

And no it's not debatable. Debatable is something like "Genesis: you define all traits in the plane, such as <list of X>", but guess what. It never says that. It lists exactly what you can do and the time trait isn't one of them. End of story.

What you're essentially trying to say is the Psionic version of Fighter (psychic warrior) gets Power Points and the non-psionic version (fighter) doesn't say he don't. Therefor it is debatable that Fighter gets Power Points.

Please, unless you want to claim to be ignorant of how the English language works, there's no way to compare the two.

The basic issue is that the arcane spell has an open wording: "factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain" blah blah blah.  The "such as" in English, means that the list is giving examples and not meant to be exhaustive.  So, lets look at where factors like atmosphere and the like are listed under when talking about the planes, shall we?

Hmrm, looks like they're covered under physical traits, doesn't it?  So, what else is covered under physical traits?  I'll be damned, Time is listed.

So, any more comments on how people should read the books?  Granted, hopefully no one is actually stupid enough to play with genesis under those rules, but you can't claim that the interpretation is completely groundless.

[Psithief]

Is arcane genesis actually in any of the 3.5 books or just the SRD?

[X-Codes]

Is arcane genesis actually in any of the 3.5 books or just the SRD?

Probably ELH.  That's where it's listed in the SRD.

Also, everyone needs to pull the collective sticks from their asses and ice their nerd rage.  There is absolutely nobody saying that the only way to play Genesis ever is to allow the caster to manipulate their demiplane's time trait.  What's more, it's not even the point of this thread.  The point of this thread is to gauge the impact of having no time traits at all.

[SorO_Lost]

<snip, everything I said is a pointless language debate.</snip>

You're going to ride my ass about language and follow up with sometime of a atmosphere &  temperature are Physical Traits therefor you can change them all! fallacy?

Further, none of the things you quoted are even classified Physical Traits. D&D's Physical Traits are Gravity (no mention), Time (no mention), Shape (defined by the spell, not the caster), and Morphic (not mentioned yet set to alterable morhpic). So you using your personal definitions, btw temperature is more of an energy, in order to claim you can alter someone else's definition of physical. Again, I'm sure there is a named fallacy for this too.

Basically, Bozwevial had a better point than you.

Also, everyone needs to pull the collective sticks from their asses and ice their nerd rage.  There is absolutely nobody saying that the only way to play Genesis ever is to allow the caster to manipulate their demiplane's time trait.  What's more, it's not even the point of this thread.  The point of this thread is to gauge the impact of having no time traits at all.

Less fun is the answer.

Let's face it, time altered planes are a tool. Just like gravity altered ones or morphic ones or just plain extra dimensional ones. Yes a PC can find a loop hole and exploit an aspect of the rules, but you don't use a cannon to kill squirrels. Deal with the exploit, not blanket ban anything that looks funny. Planar Bubble? Remove the time trait carry over and see if they ever get around to abusing the elemental plane of fire to burn villages down to provoke the idea of just removing the spell. Wizard Planeshiftting out and back? Who said those eight hours in relative time were encounter free or the 48 minutes the Wizard was gone the party didn't win an encounter and the Wizard missed out on XP? Why scream "No" at your players because you never thought at once to have the BBEG exploit this solo-Wizard-who-is-low-on-spells weakness that presents it's self hourly?

Maybe it's just me, but if a creative solution is found by a PC. I try to come up with a creative problem within it rather than throwing the banhammer at them. So ultimately, I'd just ask the player not to be a douche bag just as he would have asked for me not to be a douche bag DM. And we get all the fun of having more tools to play with and we get along better because my players are not holding a hall pass to being narcissistic jerks out to break my world... Ahh who am I kidding, they always are and so am I, but at least we pretend to be fair right? ... Mostly out of fear the Contingency(baleful transposition) spells start showing up on random mooks

[Mooncrow]

You're going to ride my ass about language and follow up with sometime of a atmosphere &  temperature are Physical Traits therefor you can change them all! fallacy?

I'm not saying it's strictly correct, I'm saying that it's not a completely unreasonable interpretation, and in no way comparable to your pyschic warrior bullshit analogy.

[SneeR]

What you're essentially trying to say is the Psionic version of Fighter (psychic warrior) gets Power Points and the non-psionic version (fighter) doesn't say he don't. Therefor it is debatable that Fighter gets Power Points.

This is so off-base that it's funny.

Let me explain: Ahem.
Genesis is to Psychic Genesis in a way that is unlike fighter is to psychic warrior. You see, Psychic Genesis is almost exactly the same as Genesis, except they tacked on a bit about no time traits. Otherwise, they do the same thing.

Psychic Warrior is so unlike Fighter that I wonder if you have read it. Psychic warrior, interestingly enough, has class features, and is assuredly NOT a retooling of fighter.

The comparison is not similar at all. Therefore, the fundament of your inflammatory comment is ungrounded.

The only way what you said would be relevant is if, at the end of the section on bonus feats in the Psychic warrior entry, it said, "You may not trade in your bonus feats for more power points."
Then one is made to wonder, "Well, could I trade in my bonus feats for power points before?"

That is the only situation in which your laughable comment would make sense. Please attempt to think out your arguments before passionately spewing them forth.

That is all.

[SorO_Lost]

What you're essentially trying to say is the Psionic version of Fighter (psychic warrior) gets Power Points and the non-psionic version (fighter) doesn't say he don't. Therefor it is debatable that Fighter gets Power Points.

This is so off-base that it's funny.

Hi Welcome.

Stay tuned, I've been doing that here for the last two (three?) years.

[SneeR]

What you're essentially trying to say is the Psionic version of Fighter (psychic warrior) gets Power Points and the non-psionic version (fighter) doesn't say he don't. Therefor it is debatable that Fighter gets Power Points.

This is so off-base that it's funny.

Hi Welcome.

Stay tuned, I've been doing that here for the last two (three?) years.

That's pretty funny, too.
You're proudly admitting that you have been spouting off non-sequitor comparisons that do nothing to support your argument for two or three years? Nice.

I love how the people here don't understand that fundaments of stable arguments.

[X-Codes]

 

That is all. *click*