Author Topic: Help With Spellthief/Daggerspell Mage  (Read 5076 times)

Offline SleepyShadow

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Help With Spellthief/Daggerspell Mage
« on: August 01, 2016, 04:15:59 PM »
Hey everyone, I've got a relatively new player in the group that I'm DMing and I'm appealing to more experienced optimizers out there for help with her character. She wants to take spellthief into daggerspell mage (I'm letting her slide on the arcane caster level requirement), and I'm worried that the other players in the group will either horribly outclass her or just shout down the first idea that she had that wasn't someone else telling her to play a heal-bot cleric.

IIRC, her current build looks something like this:

CG Human Spellthief 5/Daggerspell Mage 1
Feats: Weapon Focus (Dagger) [Human], Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Draconic Aura (Vigor)

Anything that can be done to bring this up to par would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Help With Spellthief/Daggerspell Mage
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2016, 06:34:10 PM »
Trickster
The typical spellthief is essentially a rogue who can steal magic, and as a related endeavor can cast a few spells as well. By taking the trickster ability substitution, a spellthief becomes more a sorcerer who has learned to draw magic from others as well as from an internal heritage. This is the most sweeping of these ability substitutions, and it should appeal to players looking for an arcane spellcaster with a broad range of new tricks.
Level: 1st.
Replaces: You lose 2 skill points per level. You gain only 4 skill points + Int modifier at each additional level (x 4 at 1st level). In addition, Appraise, Bluff, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Swim and Tumble are no longer class skills for you.
You do not gain the trapfinding ability at 1st level.
You do not gain additional sneak attack bonus dice at 4th or higher levels. Your spellthief sneak attack bonus damage remains fixed at +1d6. If you have other classes that grant more sneak attack bonus dice, you gain those as normal.
Benefit: You cast spells as a bard of your spellthief level, and your caster level equals your spellthief level (rather than half your spellthief level). You gain spells per day and spells known as a bard of your level, which allows you to cast spells at 1st level, unlike a typical spellthief. In addition to the spellthief spell list, you may select spells known from the bard spell list as well
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Help With Spellthief/Daggerspell Mage
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2016, 11:34:57 PM »
Trickster spellthief is from Dragon Magazine 353, page 84.  ADMG already went over the tradeoffs, but the source might be offputting to you.  Are you okay using Dragon Mag?

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Help With Spellthief/Daggerspell Mage
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2016, 12:27:30 AM »
And there's no way she could be talked into going Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Daggerspell Mage 1 with Master Spellthief?  :D

Aside from that yeah, using the dragon mag variant is probably your best bet... although I hate the loss of the class skills.
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Offline SleepyShadow

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Re: Help With Spellthief/Daggerspell Mage
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2016, 03:58:03 AM »
Trickster spellthief is from Dragon Magazine 353, page 84.  ADMG already went over the tradeoffs, but the source might be offputting to you.  Are you okay using Dragon Mag?

Dragon Magazine is fine with me (for the most part) but I think she was going for more of a skill-based build than a caster build. I'll talk to her about it, though.

Offline Arz

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Re: Help With Spellthief/Daggerspell Mage
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2016, 06:24:34 PM »
Ask her to dump daggerspell for a straight spellthief, and read my sig...

Offline SleepyShadow

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Re: Help With Spellthief/Daggerspell Mage
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2016, 11:58:38 PM »
Ask her to dump daggerspell for a straight spellthief, and read my sig...

Any particular reason to drop daggerspell mage?

Offline faeryn

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Re: Help With Spellthief/Daggerspell Mage
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2016, 01:50:39 AM »
I would honestly like to echo the Spellthief1/Wizard4/Daggerspell MageX build... tough personally I'd go Spellthief2 for steal spell effect and Detect Magic.... mainly for steal spell effect... it's far to benefitial to sacrifice. Having the ability to steal active spell effects from enemies can make her extremely valuable to the party...

Also the Trickster variant is still very usefull even if she's building more skill heavy due to the bard casting and the greater versatility of the bards spell list... Most of the skills she'd lose as class skill she could easily supliment with bard spells...

Spellthief2/Bard3/DaggerspellX is also a nice option... take Bardic Knak for some nice bonuses to her skills and call it good... Don't forget Master Spellthief to get that casterlevel up and to keep progression of the steal spell ability though her Bard & Daggerspell Mage levels.

She may aslo want to look into Arcane Trickster if you progress past level 15


I love the spelltheif class and actuall wanted to build into Daggerspell myself in My last campaign but changes in the party and events in the campaign prevented it... Personally if I ever get to play a spellthief again I'd certainly play Spellthief2/Bard3/Daggerspell10/ArcaneTrickster5
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 02:00:28 AM by faeryn »

Offline Arz

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Re: Help With Spellthief/Daggerspell Mage
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2016, 06:07:56 PM »
Provides zero benefit to a spellthief and all its class abilities can be replicated through spells/feats. Additionally, its fun to be a pokethief...

Offline SleepyShadow

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Re: Help With Spellthief/Daggerspell Mage
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2016, 05:52:22 PM »
I would honestly like to echo the Spellthief1/Wizard4/Daggerspell MageX build... tough personally I'd go Spellthief2 for steal spell effect and Detect Magic.... mainly for steal spell effect... it's far to benefitial to sacrifice. Having the ability to steal active spell effects from enemies can make her extremely valuable to the party...

Also the Trickster variant is still very usefull even if she's building more skill heavy due to the bard casting and the greater versatility of the bards spell list... Most of the skills she'd lose as class skill she could easily supliment with bard spells...

Spellthief2/Bard3/DaggerspellX is also a nice option... take Bardic Knak for some nice bonuses to her skills and call it good... Don't forget Master Spellthief to get that casterlevel up and to keep progression of the steal spell ability though her Bard & Daggerspell Mage levels.

She may aslo want to look into Arcane Trickster if you progress past level 15


I love the spelltheif class and actuall wanted to build into Daggerspell myself in My last campaign but changes in the party and events in the campaign prevented it... Personally if I ever get to play a spellthief again I'd certainly play Spellthief2/Bard3/Daggerspell10/ArcaneTrickster5

Thank you for the help! She ended up liking the spellthief/bard idea. Should be all set up for Monday.