Author Topic: Fighter vs Wizard Power Growth  (Read 11464 times)

Offline faeryn

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Re: Fighter vs Wizard Power Growth
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2016, 03:17:24 PM »
I think you may have misunderstood my meaning...

I'll start with the whole outside optimization invalidates comparison of class power part... the invalidation is when outside optimization is taken into the equation... eliminating outside optimization from the equation is needed to yield a proper comparison, that was all I was saying with that.

My mention of WBL was purely to impose a restriction if crafting of magic items were to be taken into account for the wizard. Without such a limit one could skew the results to the point of claiming that wizards progression makes them infinitely stronger than fighters, a result that should be avoided. But if Wizard bonus feats are being ignored completely then such a limit is unnecessary and can be ignored. I have no interest in discussing WBL, it was simply a tool for limiting the impact of crafting in comparisons.

As for the factors that effectively cancel out on both sides of the equation, I have no qualms with them. I admit I may have rambled on a bit in my previous post...

If your focus was to compare feat progression against spell progression, then my original point still stands... I used the simplest method to compare the two in my example. A wizard using one of their most common damage spells (fireball) compared to a fighter of equal level using a progression of some of their most common fighter feats (Weapon Spec, Weapon Focus, TWF/Power Attack)... the result was that both classes at lv6 hold the same average level of power. In the role of damage they would both be inter changeable... a comparison of other aspects outside of damage can similarly be made using a different progression of fighter bonus feats.

Over all I do still agree that wizards are indeed stronger, but that is due to versatility... In my opinion the progressions however are equivalent... That said, I will however agree that a feat does not necessarily have the same value as a spell.


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Offline KellKheraptis

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Re: Fighter vs Wizard Power Growth
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2016, 03:20:38 PM »
If you chose a high estimate of feat = 2nd level spells, the fighter line's height is obviously doubled. This puts fighters' progression just below the wizard one at level 8. Does anyone feel the need for me to recreate such a picture? I can imagine it very easily. The shape doesn't change, just the f(x) = g(x) point.
That covers part of my original point, but not all of it. The first feat in a typical feat chain is about equivalent to a second level spell, yes: however, the higher feats in the feat chain are worth more. Even in a low-optimization environment, fighters tend to pick feats higher up in the same feat chain rather than the start of another feat chain, if possible. So the first feat a fighter takes would be equivalent to a 2nd level spell, but the second and third would be higher. This continues until he completes the feat chain and must start another one. Thus the shape would be an upward-rising curve, followed by a plateau and then another upward-rising curve.

The issue and what PBMC is attempting to illustrate is a long-known fact about casters, which is that their power growth via spells exclusively is entirely exponential, and is further pocked by spikes above the curve at each level - your Polymorphs, Celerities, Time Stops, Magic Jars, etc.  While a feat chain can certainly ramp up in power with each further feat, they do reach an inevitable plateau and cannot advance further, meaning another feat chain - unless directly synergizing an existing feat chain - would be a lateral move and its own ramp up and plateau.  Spells on the other hand, are as a single mechanic their own exponential curve, and while there are certainly plateau points at each new level of spells, there are equally selections within any given level that trivialize anything the caster may encounter at level-appropriate CR and fall within normal mean optimization.  Even a John Q Public Wizard will likely have Sleep, Stinking Cloud, and Black Tentacles by level 9 or 10, as a few examples, and that's only a VERY small example of the bigger whole from the PHB only.  Another example of a spike above the curve is Grease - a 1st level spell that hoses chargers (anything ground-bound for that matter) and makes anything involving climbing a death sentence.  And that's just ONE SPELL that most Wizards, even the fire-based stereotypical blasters pick up.

Part of the complexity in quantifying spell power has to do with the big 3 of the 4 common Wizard roles being mostly force multipliers, however as Sor0 demonstrated, even a rudimentary buff sequence that should be relatively common can turn a caster into a melee powerhouse with minimal effort.  Even without feats augmenting their capability, they are able to fulfill the ROLE needed at that time, while still having on tap debuff/blast/BFC capability.

As for fulfilling multiple roles at once, it's relatively easy to debuff, blast, and BFC with a SINGLE SPELL with even a modicum of thinking on the part of the Wizard player.  The closest thing to that a Fighter has is a chain tripper, most likely, and while they can lock down like a champ, they still actually RISK something to do it.  In particular once a Wizard can do the above from greater invisibility or with a Mirror Image running, the odds of there being reprisal for his action are laughable.

And this also isn't taking into account the force multipliers that are PrCs as well, which takes all of the above to a whole new ballgame.

@Faeryn : I think describing it as cubic or exponential with quadratic options (the spikes above the curve) might be slightly more accurate, but the end-result is roughly the same.  The leap attacking demoralizing chain tripper reaches an absolute plateau, while the wizard's options keep getting increasingly more powerful than the level before, up to the endpoint of access to the abilities of any creature ever, being able to stop time outright, and being able to call in beings far more powerful even than themselves.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 03:46:15 PM by KellKheraptis »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fighter vs Wizard Power Growth
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2016, 04:18:02 PM »
The issue and what PBMC is attempting to illustrate is a long-known fact about casters
That right there is pretty much the tl;dr of the thread.

The disagreement is in illustration rather than opposing the facts. Like misconstruing data to match an intended specific example that I had to deal with. The optimization type arguments are a combined fallacy of moving the goal posts and inconsistent comparison. Like the idea is when discussing the Wizard you place the goal posts so far away that any attempt to reach them can be portrayed in a negative way. Sic, "Of course you cheating optimized to enter melee as a Wizard, melee is so far away nothing but cheating optimization can do it!" But when it's the Fighter's turn up to throw the ball the goal posts are moved within be easily within his range. Sic "Of course the Fighter is good at swinging an axe, he gets a +2 damage bonus to chopping wood."

This in turn creates rebuttals dealing with the other illustration as a self perpetuating cycle. Like claiming your 20th Feat is comparable to Ice Assassin, because your generalization assumes that both progressions are equivalent and you are so committed to that concept that you'd argue Ice Assassin cannot be used as an illustration.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Fighter vs Wizard Power Growth
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2016, 11:27:00 PM »
I will point out that yes there are spikes (polymorph, cough cough) and that playstyle will affect whatever rubric you choose (fireballs only wizards), but that I trust my abstract averages are still mildly enlightening. Someone else is more than welcome to design and plot more detailed graphs.

About the feat chains having higher a rate of return, I rarely find this to be noticeable for mundanes. For instance, a lot of feats are really useful without a "feat tax" like improved initiative. There are outliers like Troll-blooded, of course, but I can't think of a fighter chain that has a clear polynomial progression. Greater Weapon Specialization could have been made without a chain. Power attack is usually more useful than greater cleave (how often do you really get to mow down more than two mooks?).

The one example I can think of is DMM(Persist): extend is a useful feat but persist is more useful for an anima mage or something. Then comes along DMM and it gets cranked up to an eleven.

Offline Endarire

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Re: Fighter vs Wizard Power Growth
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2016, 11:43:51 PM »
PMBC: Great Cleave was super useful for my team in Temple of Elemental Evil.  So many mooks!

But, yes, this has been my only experience where Great Cleave was notably worthy.

Offline IlPazzo

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Re: Fighter vs Wizard Power Growth
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2016, 09:25:07 AM »
PMBC: Great Cleave was super useful for my team in Temple of Elemental Evil.  So many mooks!

But, yes, this has been my only experience where Great Cleave was notably worthy.
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Offline Endarire

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Re: Fighter vs Wizard Power Growth
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2016, 01:18:30 AM »
IP: Considering the frequency of random encounters (especially while resting), those options are much less viable than listed.

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