Poison Ring

[Kethrian]

The poison ring (Dragon Compendium, p. 111/115) is an amazingly powerful weapon in the right hands.  Not only is almost every class proficient with it, but it has special rules that can make normally tough enemies incredibly simple to defeat.  Dragon?  Not a problem, just be sure to let the rogue dual-wielding poison rings get his flank on, then sneak attack it into the grave.  Golem?  A fighter with a poison ring will be able to land virtually every blow, adding his strength, feats, and weapon enchantments to the damage and take it down quickly.

Advantages:
 - Simple weapon.
 - Light weapon, for dual-wielding a pair or Weapon Finesse.
 - All attacks are melee touch attacks!
 - Poison friendly.
 - Disguised, so it is very hard to detect as a threat.
 - Can deal damage subtly.
 - Worn, so it is always in-hand for things like Warning enchantments, and though the rules do not state it, a poison ring should be as hard to disarm as spiked gauntlets.
 - You still get to add to damage (Sneak Attack, Weapon Specialization, weapon enchantments, Strength, etc).

Disadvantages:
 - Not Power Attack friendly.
 - Always does only 1 base damage, regardless of size.

I'm honestly surprised there isn't a handbook on this site detailing every possible way to maximize this weapon.  It should be placed right up there with the crescent knife, rope dart, minotaur greathammer, and other weapons that nearly every character should consider taking.

[Solo]

Can I wear 4 of them and bitch slap someone?

[SorO_Lost]

The poison ring from Dragon Compendium is a light simple weapon that deals a mere 1 damage, but does so with a touch attack!  While PA abuse is unavailable, sneak attack is an obvious bonus for lots of added damage, as are duskblade channeled spells.

Challenge: come up with truly devastating uses/abuses for this weapon!

I got none. Waithstrike let's me use touch attacks with any melee weapon. For example, a Quickrazor lets me use Iaijitsu Focus repeatedly.

Hey, for once Dragon isn't publishing some super powerful item. Unless of course it was published before Waithstrike...

[Nytemare3701]

Is 100% uptime wraithstrike that common now in builds? A dirt cheap nonmagical constant wraithstrike still seems pretty damn good.

EDIT: They may not be power attack friendly by default, but if you make one large enough, you could wield it in two hands, yeah? Just a guess, I can't remember the weapon sizing rules right now.

[SorO_Lost]

Is 100% uptime wraithstrike that common now in builds?

*cough*

Challenge: come up with truly devastating uses/abuses for this weapon!

If you'd like an alternative, the Ghostly Arm Graft gives you a 1d6 Incorporeal Touch Attack for 8k. Like the ring it's Touch and no Str, but it deals more, can attack through walls, the auto-Weapon Finesse can appeal to the very same Classes that grant Sneak Attack, and technically you can Power Attack with it. And if that doesn't sound kosher well you use your Charisma in place of your Strength for manipulation (including bullrush) so while the rules don't rush out and say Shadows wielding Ghost Touch Greatswords use Charisma for damage, they sure the hell laid the ground work for it.

[Nytemare3701]

Like the ring it's Touch and no Str...technically you can Power Attack with it.

Nothing in the ring's description says it can't use strength, and you can power attack with an upsized ring if I'm not mistaken. Still underwhelming compared to grafting a ghost arm onto yourself, but significantly lower profile and easier to access.

That settles it, I'm making an NPC War Hulk "Noble" who crushes the hands he shakes and executes people with pimpslaps.


(In agreement though that it's not totally broken overall, just stating that it's very easy to get in-world compared to a graft or a persisted spell so it has a much larger window of usable levels.)

[SorO_Lost]

Nothing in the ring's description says it can't use strength, and you can power attack with an upsized ring if I'm not mistaken. Still underwhelming compared to grafting a ghost arm onto yourself, but significantly lower profile and easier to access.

Really? Keth you've been misleading me all this time? :O

Pimpslap builds is pretty much how all of my Monks are designed, except I use "hand" as a metaphor.

[Nytemare3701]

(click to show/hide)

Poison Ring: This large but stylish ring has a reservoir that can hold a single dose of poison (injury only). To deliver the poison, the wearer must flip down a tiny, hollow needle so that it protrudes from the palm side of the ring, then make a successful touch attack against her target. Locking the needle into place requires a standard action, but the wearer tends to look rather suspicious fussing with her ring. Alternatively, the wearer can attempt to position the needle one-handed with a DC 15 Dexterity check, but failing by 5 or more indicates that she has pricked herself with the needle and is subject to the poison. An observer can notice the needle protruding from the wearer's palm with a successful DC 30 Spot check.
The ring deals 1 point of damage on a successful touch attack, plus the poison's normal damage. The victim may have to make a DC 10 Wisdom check to recognize the source of the attack if not in combat.

The language is actually kind of concerning. It either allows all sources of extra damage, or none, depending on how you read that last section.

[SorO_Lost]

The language is actually kind of concerning. It either allows all sources of extra damage, or none, depending on how you read that last section.

Yeah I see why Keth said it deals 1 damage no matter the size since the entry calls out 1pt.

Touch Attacks are honestly kind of wonky to begin with. I think in the most general rules Touch Attack doesn't override the damage calculation but most Touch Attacks are pretty specific in what they do. Like the Touch Attack to start a Grapple doesn't just deal "0" damage allowing you to apply Power/Sneak Attack but it does no damage at all, same goes for Touch Attacks for Spells to in that you don't get to add your Strength Modifier and a Lich's Touch Attack also doesn't about about your Ability Scores and so on. The text needs some adjudication and I can see it both ways.

But Sneak Attack is a bonus damage deal that triggers off any type of Attack that deals damage, for example you can even deliver SA with Spells. So to me you'd could certainly include it. And to be honest, it's not the "Touch Attack" part of the ring that I'm interesting in, I mean it's useful but just trying to use Precision Damage improves your odds of hitting, it's the Wisdom Check. With Sickening/Terrifying Strike & a Wisdom based poison, maybe even Mosquito's Bite to really mess with their heads, you can attack a target with pretty much get away with it. Even if you are hidden your target knows where the attack came from and people can always search the area or even play detective to figure out who hid where. But the ring is a conspiracy game, something just hurt you, was it a hidden assassin, was it a Spell, was it the people next to you? On your failure you have no idea what the source even is.

And to that I offer Grafted Weapon out of Fiend Folio & the Bloodwind Spell out of Savage Species. The graft turns the ring into a Natural Weapon and [Still/Silent/Invisible] Bloodwind lets you performed a ranged attack with it. You'd best keep an eye out on anyone with some kind of hand palsy.

[Kethrian]

The difference between 'attack' and 'touch attack' in the glossary of the PHB indicate the only difference between them is that an attack must penetrate armour and the like in order to be successful, while a touch attack must simply connect with the target but does not need to penetrate.  Melee touch attacks still add Strength to the result to see if you succeed.

The poison ring does not state that you cannot add other modifiers to the damage, which it should call out explicitly if they are not meant to be, such as the examples Sor0 gave (spells requiring touch attacks and a Lich's touch).  Having the text declare that it deals 1 damage is no different than under the grapple rules of the PHB, Damage Your Opponent, which states what unarmed damage you deal, but does not include possibilities such as Weapon Specialization (Unarmed) or Magic Fang, which would normally add to the damage of an unarmed strike.  Therefore, the 1 damage rule for the poison ring is referring to the weapon's base damage only.

Wisdom damage poison to help ensure the victim does not succeed in locating the source is a great way to use the ring.  What about a Silent, Stilled Whirlwind Blade?  Or get really silly and have a Bloodstorm Blade subtly throw the ring, delivering both poison and utilizing a manoeuvre to deal even more Wisdom damage or penalize the check?

[SorO_Lost]

Melee touch attacks still add Strength to the result to see if you succeed.

Using the glossary to support a point is like admitting you failed to find any useful supporting evidence which is why I also see a lot of kettle logic in your post and the red herring from your previous one where you assert the ring does 1 damage regardless of size because the ring says so and are now immediately countering this to claim by saying your strength applies because the statement of 1 damage is more of a guideline.

Also some rules information for you, the Lich under damage declares that it's touch deals 1d8+5 damage and "Having the text declare that it deals 1 damage is no different" The text does not include your Strength Modifier and one could only image the damage buff all Touch based creatures would receive against PCs. Your incomplete comparison has you falsely attributing to touch attacks dealing damage during a grapple when the touch attack deals nothing and it's after the successful grapple check that you deal your unarmed damage.

And I find it funny you decided to bring up BSB, "As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn." it completely ignores the ring's touch benefit but you've just implied otherwise. And speaking of the same book Emerald Razor saw fit to expressly call out that if you hit you deal your normal melee damage opposed to oh idk, being silent or saying you deal your normal touch melee.

I'm not shooting for you're 100% wrong on the matter, but I am saying the issue is far more complex than you whom doesn't even know how little he knows imagines it to be. You certainly did run off half cocked and are tripping over your points like the NES portrays lemmings and you need to actually stop and think some. And you should definitely consider the repercussions of globally following such a houserule as it opposes a wide spread concept observed by the authors and can be far more detrimental to PCs than helpful given their range of Touch options compared to their opponents.