[PF] Retraining and Racial Traits

[Theaitetos]

Hello and happy new year!

I'm new here and don't know if this is the right place to ask or whether my questions have been answered somewhere already (several searches didn't show any promising results).

First, I wondered whether the Retraining Rules allow you to get the standard trait(s) back, when you retrain a racial trait. I asked on the Paizo forums but got only 1 reply. The rules would indicate you can get those standard racial traits back, but the example given with the dwarf seem ambiguous:

If your campaign uses alternate racial traits, you can retrain a racial trait. This takes 20 nonconsecutive days and requires a trainer with the racial trait you want. The replacement trait must be an appropriate one from your racial list. The old and new racial traits must replace the same standard racial trait. For example, the magic resistant and stubborn alternate dwarven traits replace the hardy standard trait, so you can retrain one of those for the other.

Second question, about Retraining of Feats:

You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can’t be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.

The issue I wonder about is whether you can retrain a feat gained from a racial trait. The rules would indicate that yes, you can. The rules seem to restrict retraining options only in regard to feats gained from class features, but not from racial traits. That way other races could get a bonus feat of their choice too, like humans, instead of being locked into something like Skill Focus; it would take 5 days and 50 x level gp, so 50gp at 1st level, which I think is a good investment.

My third question is about stacking Light Blindness (Ex):

Creatures with light blindness are blinded for 1 round if exposed to bright light, such as sunlight or the daylight spell. Such creatures are dazzled as long as they remain in areas of bright light.

If my character got this from two sources, there wouldn't be any stacking penalties involved, right?


My fourth question is about stacking racial traits. Is it possible for my character to get an alternate racial trait twice? For example, Fey Thoughts allows the following choices:

The character sees the world more like a native of the First World. Select two of the following skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Fly, Knowledge (nature), Perception, Perform, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim, or Use Magic Device. The selected skills are always class skills for the character.

A dwarf can take this trait in place of hatred. An elf, gnome, or half-orc can take this trait in place of racial weapon familiarity. A half-elf can take this trait in place of multitalented. A half ling can take it in place of fearless. In the case of humans, this trait replaces the skilled trait (and the human also gains fey magic and low-light vision, as detailed in Fey Magic, above).

As a half-elf you can take this trait as an Elf, as a Half-Elf, and as a Human. Could I take it twice (or even more often) to add more class skills? I think it should, since it's not stacking in any way, but I'm not sure.

The fifth question is about exchanging (alternate) racial traits. Say I make a half-elven character, named Paragon, and I choose the Racial Heritage (Half-Orc) feat at 1st level, I should be able to also exchange and/or retrain Half-Orc racial traits, correct? At least the rules seem to be applied that way, since the feat also allows racial archetypes.

If the fourth question is affirmed, then would it make it possible for Paragon to do this exchange:

Half-Elf, Drow-Blooded alternate racial trait:

Some half-elves born of drow parents exhibit more drow traits than others—particularly many of the physical features of the drow—and have darkvision 60 feet and light blindness. This racial trait replaces the low-light vision racial trait.

Half-Orc, Skilled alternate racial trait:

Second- and third-generation half-orcs often favor their human heritage more than their orc heritage. Half-orcs with this trait gain 1 additional skill rank per level. This racial trait replaces darkvision.

Human, Fey Magic alternate racial trait:

The character has a mystic [snipped]... . A human can take it in place of skilled. A human who replaces skilled with fey magic also gains fey thoughts and low-light vision.

So if possible, Paragon would trade away his Low-Light Vision at first but would get it back in the end with additional stuff (Fey Magic & Fey Thoughts) along the way. The only downside would be getting Light Blindness.

Did I make any mistakes here? Thanks for taking the time to read this far!
All answers appreciated!

[zook1shoe]

1} RAW, you can only get a replacement/modified alternate racial trait. but most GMs would probably allow you to get the original back.

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2} you can retrain the feat, but the only options are those granted by the ability/feature granting the feat.

a human could get any option normal from Bonus Feat, but a half-orc could only trade Endurance for Endurance from Shaman's Apprentice. half-elves could change which skill their Adaptability applies to, but not retrain Skill Focus for Power Attack.

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3} light blindness causes you to gain a condition, you cannot be penalized for double blinded.

they would have to both get resolved independently, just like any other condition (like being paralyzed from 2 different effects).

whatever way of removing a condition might apply to both conditions, like changing the light levels.

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5a} yes
5b} yes
5c} no, you wouldn't be able to replace only the low-light part of Fey Magic, because it is part of the whole trait.

basically, the low-light vision doesn't replace/modify a racial trait by itself.
so you would have zero options to retrain into, since retraining requires the old trait to be replaced by a new trait that qualifies.

EDIT: fixed a couple #s

[Power]

This is the right place to ask, yes.

1) It's not explicitly mentioned, but the answer should be yes. Retraining back to the base trait should be fine.
2) By RAW, there is no restriction detailed against doing this, yes, but realistically any GM will rule that the RAI indicates any form of retraining feats should be subject to the same limited list of options that the original feat had, I imagine.
3) Blinded and dazzled conditions would overlap, but not stack. It doesn't extend the duration or double the penalties, no, but if you try to remove blinded or dazzled, you'd have to remove both instances. However, you cannot have "light blindness" twice because that is a racial trait and you cannot have racial traits twice.
4) No, according to the Advanced Race Guide: "Unless stated otherwise, all racial traits are extraordinary abilities, and each racial trait can only be taken once."
5a) There is no definitive ruling on this subject, and "traits" are not the same as "racial traits" (annoyingly enough), but the text explicitly says "any effects" and the list is deliberately broadly construed with "and so on" written into the list. So seeing as you seem to count as that race for any and all purposes, presumably that would qualify you for their alternate racial traits. However, a more narrow interpretation is that you can only replace Half-Orc racial traits if you possess them as part of being a Half-Orc. This is somewhat in "Ask your DM" territory. Still, any alternate racial trait that gives you the Human race's Skilled racial trait seems to be leaving the door open to trade it for anything the Skilled racial trait qualifies for.
5b) Ask your DM. I suppose technically yes, you could trade Low Light Vision into Darkvision (as Half-Elf) into Skilled (as Half-Orc) into the combo of Low Light Vision, Fey Thoughts, and Fey Magic while retaining Light Blindness.

[zook1shoe]

Both of our different answers boil down to....

Ask your GM

[Theaitetos]

Thank you for your answers! I'm glad I posted in the right place. 

4) No, according to the Advanced Race Guide: "Unless stated otherwise, all racial traits are extraordinary abilities, and each racial trait can only be taken once."

Isn't this from the guide about building your own races? This "taken only once" seems to refer to how often you can pick one of the things when building a race, not about a player choosing alternate racial traits for an individual character, I think. Ah well, I can live with that, thx.

2} you can retrain the feat, but the only options are those granted by the ability/feature granting the feat.a human could get any option normal from Bonus Feat, but a half-orc could only trade Endurance for Endurance from Shaman's Apprentice. half-elves could change which skill their Adaptability applies to, but not retrain Skill Focus for Power Attack.

That's what I think was intended, RAI, but RAW this restriction seems to apply only to feats gained from class features, which is why I asked:

You may change one feat to another through retraining. [...] If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.

Sure, it would make humans even stronger, since they can exchange their 1 bonus feat for 3 retrainable skill focus feats with the "Focused Study" alternate racial trait. But I still think it's RAW legal.

5c} no, you wouldn't be able to replace only the low-light part of Fey Magic, because it is part of the whole trait.

basically, the low-light vision doesn't replace/modify a racial trait by itself.
so you would have zero options to retrain into, since retraining requires the old trait to be replaced by a new trait that qualifies.

This last part wasn't about retraining, just ordinary racial trait exchanges during character creation. However, even if it were, it's 3 separate traits you get when exchanging Skilled: Fey Magic & Fey Thoughts & Low-Light Vision; so retraining should be possible with any single one of these later.


I spent a lot of time juggling all these many options around, since a Half-Elf with Racial Heritage (Half-Orc) and the (basically free) Drow Heritage racial trait can trade/retrain racial traits as a Human, Half-Elf, Elf, Drow, and Half-Orc. And sometimes these alternate racial traits have vastly different costs associated with them.


So after basically getting Fey Magic & Fey Thoughts for free (just being stuck with Light Blindness), I can retrain Fey Magic into Illustrious Urbanite (as an Elf) to get a Spell Focus feat. Fey Thoughts can be retrained into either Shadowhunter or Voice in the Darkness (both as an Elf), so my char could, as a Half-Elf, retrain these again to either get Thinblood Resistance + Poison Use (for the Toxic Spell metamagic) or Starchild - the latter gets Psychic Sensitivity as a bonus feat, which should also be retrainable.
Maybe I don't even have to choose, since I got Low-Light Vision back and can do the entire trade again?


Two (or more) bonus feats minus the Racial Heritage feat & being stuck with Light Blindness is a great deal, imo. After having read the entire "Fun Pathfinds" threads, I thought that this forum would appreciate my find. 

[zook1shoe]

2} you can retrain the feat, but the only options are those granted by the ability/feature granting the feat.a human could get any option normal from Bonus Feat, but a half-orc could only trade Endurance for Endurance from Shaman's Apprentice. half-elves could change which skill their Adaptability applies to, but not retrain Skill Focus for Power Attack.

That's what I think was intended, RAI, but RAW this restriction seems to apply only to feats gained from class features, which is why I asked:

You may change one feat to another through retraining. [...] If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.

Sure, it would make humans even stronger, since they can exchange their 1 bonus feat for 3 retrainable skill focus feats with the "Focused Study" alternate racial trait. But I still think it's RAW legal.

i see your point, def RAW. but most GMs would probably not allow it, since it's pretty OP

[/font]

5c} no, you wouldn't be able to replace only the low-light part of Fey Magic, because it is part of the whole trait.

basically, the low-light vision doesn't replace/modify a racial trait by itself.
so you would have zero options to retrain into, since retraining requires the old trait to be replaced by a new trait that qualifies.

This last part wasn't about retraining, just ordinary racial trait exchanges during character creation. However, even if it were, it's 3 separate traits you get when exchanging Skilled: Fey Magic & Fey Thoughts & Low-Light Vision; so retraining should be possible with any single one of these later.


I spent a lot of time juggling all these many options around, since a Half-Elf with Racial Heritage (Half-Orc) and the (basically free) Drow Heritage racial trait can trade/retrain racial traits as a Human, Half-Elf, Elf, Drow, and Half-Orc. And sometimes these alternate racial traits have vastly different costs associated with them.


So after basically getting Fey Magic & Fey Thoughts for free (just being stuck with Light Blindness), I can retrain Fey Magic into Illustrious Urbanite (as an Elf) to get a Spell Focus feat. Fey Thoughts can be retrained into either Shadowhunter or Voice in the Darkness (both as an Elf), so my char could, as a Half-Elf, retrain these again to either get Thinblood Resistance + Poison Use (for the Toxic Spell metamagic) or Starchild - the latter gets Psychic Sensitivity as a bonus feat, which should also be retrainable.
Maybe I don't even have to choose, since I got Low-Light Vision back and can do the entire trade again?


Two (or more) bonus feats minus the Racial Heritage feat & being stuck with Light Blindness is a great deal, imo. After having read the entire "Fun Pathfinds" threads, I thought that this forum would appreciate my find. 

oh, i see. yeah, i assumed it was related to retraining.

yes, you could gain the abilities multiple times and trade them in and out for others that you.

i've done that with a half-orc backup build, who got 2 Skilled's and swapped them out. i used Planar Heritage (fetchling) to get ahold of the arcanist favored class feature for a shadowmage build, and Shadow Magic instead of one of the Skilled

[Theaitetos]

i've done that with a half-orc backup build, who got 2 Skilled's and swapped them out. i used Planar Heritage (fetchling) to get ahold of the arcanist favored class feature for a shadowmage build, and Shadow Magic instead of one of the Skilled

I'd still favor the Half-Elf. If you just want an FCB, you can use Paragon Surge to get the needed Racial Heritage feat before level-up instead of permanently using a feat.
If you need to extend the duration of the spell beyond 24h (GM: "A temporary bonus doesn't count before 24h!"), the 3rd-level bloodline power of a Shapechanger sorcerer can help extend it as necessary.


Though that reminds me of another weird thing about retraining: From a RAW point of view, Favored Class is not actually a class feature in itself, and neither are the Favored Class Bonuses. So when you retrain a class level and lose all the class features, you do not lose your old FCB from that class level; however, I'm not sure whether you would gain an FCB either if you trained into your favored class.
For example, if your Human dipped into Rogue or Slayer for his build (e.g. Arcane Trickster), and you want more Rogue/Slayer talents, just take a Rogue/Slayer level at first on level-up, then retrain the level into what you really want - you'll keep the Rogue/Slayer FCB! Or take Warpriest as your favored class, always take a level there to get bonus combat feats, then retrain into your actual class.
Unlikely that a GM allows it though. 

[zook1shoe]

mumbles how are Racial/Planar Heritage not 1st level only

clears throat nice find!

side note... Paragon Surge is a 4th-level Self-Realization subdomain spell that specifically bypasses the racial requirement

question...
using that Shapechanger bloodline + Paragon Surge trick, could you continuously cast it and during those days, retrain, say skilled, into the racial trait of the race gained by Planar/Racial Heritage?

[Power]

I'd still favor the Half-Elf. If you just want an FCB, you can use Paragon Surge to get the needed Racial Heritage feat before level-up instead of permanently using a feat.
If you need to extend the duration of the spell beyond 24h (GM: "A temporary bonus doesn't count before 24h!"), the 3rd-level bloodline power of a Shapechanger sorcerer can help extend it as necessary.

By RAW that only applies to bonuses. Counting as a specific race is a bit of a no man's land. I reckon you can do it, but you also have to deal with this rule from the CRB: "A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables." Presumably you could retain the benefits of racial archetypes though.

Though that reminds me of another weird thing about retraining: From a RAW point of view, Favored Class is not actually a class feature in itself, and neither are the Favored Class Bonuses. So when you retrain a class level and lose all the class features, you do not lose your old FCB from that class level; however, I'm not sure whether you would gain an FCB either if you trained into your favored class.
For example, if your Human dipped into Rogue or Slayer for his build (e.g. Arcane Trickster), and you want more Rogue/Slayer talents, just take a Rogue/Slayer level at first on level-up, then retrain the level into what you really want - you'll keep the Rogue/Slayer FCB! Or take Warpriest as your favored class, always take a level there to get bonus combat feats, then retrain into your actual class.
Unlikely that a GM allows it though. 

I think most GMs would tend to roll favored class bonuses into the class levels.

[Theaitetos]

I don't need the Self-Realization domain, I only play Half-Elves. 

using that Shapechanger bloodline + Paragon Surge trick, could you continuously cast it and during those days, retrain, say skilled, into the racial trait of the race gained by Planar/Racial Heritage?

Sure, you need the race only in order to select or retrain into a racial trait. But the race itself is not a prerequisite for using a racial trait; for example, Elves can take the "Shadowplay" alternate racial trait (in exchange for Elven Magic), which also grants them the Fetchling's spell-like abilities racial trait:

Some illusionists are experts in manipulating light and darkness. Characters with this trait cast spells with the darkness, light, or shadow descriptor at +1 caster level.
Dwarves can take this trait in place of greed. Elves can take this trait in place of elven magic, also gaining the fetchling’s spell-like abilities racial trait. Gnomes can take this trait in place of gnome magic. Halflings can take this trait in place of weapon familiarity. Half-orcs can take this trait in place of intimidating, also gaining the gnome’s illusion resistance racial trait.

So obviously there is no race requirement for using a racial trait once you have it. Just getting the racial trait requires the race.


Another way to extend Paragon Surge as a Shapechanger beyond a few minutes is the Ring of Continuation for 56k gold. This allows you to have the spell on 24/7, regardless of how much of its actual duration is left; which in turn allows you to make use of this gem:
If you have a feat to spare, you can learn Emergency Attunement, which allows you to change your feat choice from Paragon Surge as a standard action: Skill Focus (Stealth) when having to sneak into the merchant's house, then Skill Focus (Disable Device) when picking his bedroom lock, then SF (Sleight of Hand) when stealing the necklace from him, SF (Spellcraft) for identifying it later, SF (Diplomacy) when selling it to the hedge, ...