Author Topic: Immunity to Negative Levels  (Read 21967 times)

Offline Jelvoden

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Re: Immunity to Negative Levels
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2011, 07:54:05 PM »
I'm sorry, what? You quoted half of the first section of my previous post, using it to make the exact argument I was aiming to discredit. What was previously inequal is irrelevant. My point is that even if psionics 3.5 had some tricks wizards didn't for some period of time, your 3.5 to 3.5 examples show that most of this gap was covered in splatbooks. We are at the end stage of 3.5, and the chronology of when abilities were added doesn't change their power level now.

My ToB remark was poorly worded. Please, allow me to rephrase:
I imagine ToB advocates also wish that people group them among similarly powered classes, without the paranoia caused by the relatively new system.
This being the "similar wish" mentioned in the original phrasing. I apologize for being unclear.

Truthfully, the second section of my previous post was more speculation on the cause of these recurring, derailing topics than anything else; when some people hear "psionics is broken," they think "psionics is more broken than wizards" is being said. When someone who doesn't know psionics hears it this way, you get DMs who ban it out of hand. When people who know psionics hear it this way, you receive the reaction your original remark did. The existence of the first set of people causes the second set to become defensive, as there is a perceived difference in power between wizards and psions out of line with the actual power gap. No one is actually arguing psionics are weak. This was the point I was trying to make, however ineptly.

In response to your final sentence, I am compelled to mention (entirely in jest, mind you) that ToB possesses Iron Heart Surge, and thus is quite capable of denying the chance of entire methods of attack from ever affecting them.
edit: "...for any significant length of time."
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 08:01:50 PM by Jelvoden »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Immunity to Negative Levels
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2011, 08:08:24 PM »
I'm sorry, what? You quoted half of the first section of my previous post, using it to make the exact argument I was aiming to discredit. ... We are at the end stage of 3.5, and the chronology of when abilities were added doesn't change their power level now.
Oh, I was just off in a tangent of it was worse before for the hell of it.

Truthfully, the second section of my previous post was more speculation on the cause of these recurring, derailing topics than anything else; when some people hear "psionics is broken," they think "psionics is more broken than wizards" is being said. When someone who doesn't know psionics hears it this way, you get DMs who ban it out of hand. When people who know psionics hear it this way, you receive the reaction your original remark did. The existence of the first set of people causes the second set to become defensive, as there is a perceived difference in power between wizards and psions out of line with the actual power gap. No one is actually arguing psionics are weak. This was the point I was trying to make, however ineptly.
Ahh well, umm... This would have all been avoided if Psionics wasn't broken?  :D
:hide

In response to your final sentence, I am compelled to mention (entirely in jest, mind you) that ToB possesses Iron Heart Surge, and thus is quite capable of denying the chance of entire methods of attack from ever affecting them.
There is a difference in denying and recovering from.

You hit a ToBer with antimagic and they are affected by it. On their turn they spend a Standard Action to recover from it.
A Ring of Freedom of Movement on the other hand denies the possibility of a grapple even affecting the wearer.
You hit a ToBer with Slow and they are affected by it. On their turn they spend a Standard Action to recover from it.
Friendly Fire provides total immunity from ranged attacks, they always miss.
You hit a ToBer with Stun and they are affected by it. On their turn they can't spend a Standard Action to recover from it.
You hit a Wizard with Stun with a Contingency against it, since the Contingency technically goes off before the action that triggers it the prepared spell could ultimately prevent the Stun in the first place.
And so on.

Offline Soundwave

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Re: Immunity to Negative Levels
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2011, 09:49:38 PM »
Jelvoden summed it up quite nicely.

Quote
Ahh well, umm... This would have all been avoided if Psionics wasn't broken?
Ditto magic.

Singling out psionics in the manner people in this thread have for being broken while core's magic exists and is accepted is something i take issue with.

You cant have one system viewed as acceptable with the same or similar flaws as another while dousing the other in libel.

Both have broken portions, just as any relatively complex game has mechanics that breakdown especially when people (like us min/maxers) look to break them.

The designers are only human and playtesting is a very complex process that simply cannot duplicate the scrutiny that players over the course of years will subject their products too.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Immunity to Negative Levels
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2011, 10:21:01 PM »
Singling out psionics in the manner people in this thread have for being broken while core's magic exists and is accepted is something i take issue with.
I never really meant to single it out though. Psionics & ToB are banned from a vast majority of games according to the number of threads we get here. Of those two, ToB is awesome fun gift wrapped in the legs of virgins far from deserving the knee jerk reactions it gets. The other, well it's not exactly a false statement to say it's broken so I acknowledged as much in parenthesis while harping on the subject (do not ban 3.0) at hand.

Which did lead to this fun tangent where everyone said it's broken but mommy, magic is worse. All well, at least we got off the 3.0 is broken concept so in several terms it's a success if a little underhanded.

Offline Soundwave

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Re: Immunity to Negative Levels
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2011, 11:19:35 PM »
What people mean and what they write as well as how others interpret those things are birds of a different color eh?

An excellent clarification, so where do we go from here?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Immunity to Negative Levels
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2011, 12:11:27 AM »
Let's see.
OP made an entire thread to highlight paying 36k for immunity to negative levels like it were a misplaced Fun Finds post.
I mentioned the BoED did better and at only 70% of the cost.
And now I'm mentioning Shadowy Diadem (DM) does it for 4.4k and gives Concealment while doing so but requires a Swift Action.

Either the thread becomes a make shift listing of things that grant energy immunity, we hijack it again, or it dies so it can hilariously be necro'ed by some guy hopefully named NecromancersRevenge.

Offline Soundwave

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Re: Immunity to Negative Levels
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2011, 02:59:58 AM »
I move for a listing of related mechanics. I move to bring this to the floor for a vote.

Do I have a second?

Offline LargePrime

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Re: Immunity to Negative Levels
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2011, 12:58:23 AM »
Do I have a second
testicle?

I object and move to have Soundwave Struck.  I ask myself for a second and get half a minute.

Also As a point of order, such a listing should be a mini guide in an Immunities Handbook
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 01:01:08 AM by LargePrime »