Optimizing the Worst

[Stratovarius]

This is a repeat of a (very) old challenge I had for myself back on BG - how to make a Healer/Warmage a viable character.

This is the original thread, (ab)using a number of early entry tricks. However, I got one of them wrong, and am curious what the build would look like today with all the extra years of experience.

Edit: Moved the build into this thread:

The Worst

Race: Bamboo Spirit Folk
Alignment: NG
Stats: Str 8/Dex 10/Con 14/Int 12/Wis 16/Cha 16 (required: Con 13, Wis 13)

Level  Classes              Skills Needed   Skills                          Feats
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1      Healer 1                             4 (Sur 4, Arc 4, Rel 4, Nat 4)  Educated (ECS), Earth Sense (Murky Eyed), Earth Spell (Noncombatant)
2      Warmage 1                            1 (Arc, Rel)
3      Mystic Theurge 1     Arc 6, Rel 6    1 (Arc, Rel)                    Heighten Spell
4      Mystic Theurge 2                     2 (Nat)
5      Mystic Theurge 3                     2 (Nat)
6      Sand Shaper 1        Sur 4, Nat 4    4 (Nat)                         Touchstone (City of the Dead) [Sandstorm]
7      Mystic Theurge 4                     2 (Nat 8)
8      Mystic Theurge 5                     2 (Arc)
9      Mystic Theurge 6                     2 (Arc 8)                       Versatile Spellcaster       
10     Mystic Theurge 7                     3
11     Arcane Hierophant 1  Arc 8, Nat 8    3
12     Arcane Hierophant 2                  3                               Extraordinary Spell Aim
13     Arcane Hierophant 3                  3           
14     Arcane Hierophant 4                  3
15     Arcane Hierophant 5                  3                               Empower Spell
16     Arcane Hierophant 6                  3         
17     Arcane Hierophant 7                  3
18     Arcane Hierophant 8                  3                               Practised Caster (Warmage)
19     Arcane Hierophant 9                  3         
20     Arcane Hierophant 10                 3

Requirements:
Mystic Theurge - Arcana 6, Religion 6, 2nd level Arc + Div
Arcane Heirophant - Arcana 8, Nature 8, BAB 4, non-lawful, 2nd level Arc + Div, Trackless step
Sand Shaper - Nature 4, Survival 4, any neutral, Touchstone (City of the Dead), Arcane caster level 5th.

Feat Ideas:
I've been looking at using the Arcane Thesis (Scorching Ray) + assorted metamagic feats as probably the primary option, maxing out the Warmage's trick of lots of damage, but the poor Dex makes me not as fond of that as I might be. Still, something like Arcane Thesis (Enervation) + Split Ray, Twin Spell, Empower Spell, is probably my best bet.

An idea that is certainly piquing my interest is Arcane Thesis combined with Fell Animate, in order to have a Neutral Good healer with a small army of zombies. And yes, this stretches the bounds of anything remotely sane.

I recall there are feats/class abilities that let lower level spells be combined into higher level ones, but I don't believe there are ones that allow powering of arcane spells with divine slots, and so on. If there are, it would help greatly.

Suggestions are welcome.

Pro:

• Warmage Casting - Level 18 spontaneous casting/9th spells.
• Healer Casting - Level 18 casting/9th spells.
• Sanctified Spells - Useable by the Healer. Gives much needed divine versatility.
• Gets into the dual progression class very quickly, losing only one caster level.
• Sand Shaper spells, giving much needed power boost to the arcane side. Allows buffing using the low level slots, and adds increased options for battlefield control, including via summons.
• Volume of spells: More spells than actions in battle.
• Versatile Spellcaster: Allows the use of more higher level spells, should the need arise.
• Extraordinary Spell Aim: Better utilization of battlefield control spells.
• Cloudy Conjuration: Turns all those conjuration spells into debuffers, as well.
• Practiced Caster (Warmage): Making up for the lack of caster level.

Con:

• Warmage Casting - It's a Warmage.
• Healer Casting - It's a Healer.
• Mystic Theurge - It's a Mystic Theurge.
• Caster Level/DCs - These fall behind those of a single class caster, as expected.
• Skills - Limited skill points, mostly spread out to cover requirements for the first 10 levels.
• Stats - As with almost all dual-class casters, the stat spread suffers from severe MAD. Will need magic items to reach 19 in both casting stats.
• Feats - 5 feats are taken with making the trick work at all, limiting feat choice severely.
• AC/Attack - The lack of Dex from MAD makes the defenses and offense suffer.

Touchstone is gained via having a Touchstone Key (item of 250gp).

[Nifft]

Rainbow Warsnake could be an option, except it seems like taking 0 Healer levels isn't really in the spirit of the Healer / Warmage challenge. So let's ignore that for now.


One level of Sand Shaper might help your Warmage list woes. Or it might help both lists, depending on how you read Desert Insight. You need Arcane caster level 5 to qualify so that's Warmage gated even if it applies to both.

Mystic Theurge early access means losing 1 level of either and 3 of the other, then one more level of both to Sand Shaper 1. So that's potentially 18/11 casting.

Or sacrifice another level of both to Legacy Champion and end up with 17/15 casting.

Gate is the best spell on either list, so if you're high enough level for 9ths on one or the other, pick the Healer as higher.

Sanctified spells can be nice on the Healer side.

Some of the Initiate feats from Dragon Magazine work for non-Cleric Divine casters. The one I'm thinking of is Initiate of Obad-Hai, which allows you to spontaneously convert non-Domain slots into Summon Nature's Ally spells. That's a significant tactical upgrade on the Healer side.

[Stratovarius]

So, moved the build into the headlining post from the previous forum.

To answer your suggestions:
Sand Shaper is in there
I was (attempting to) use Earth Sense / Earth Spell to get spells heightened to above class level to get 2nd level spells early. Will need someone to rule on that.
Healer does have Sanc spells (it's why the build is NG)

Obad-Hai sounds like a feat that gives a ton of extra utility, which is great, given the lack of it.

[Nifft]

Earth Spell requires Heighten Spell, so you're just flat-out breaking the rules with that build.

Similarly, Sand Shaper requires that you already have the Touchstone feat before taking the first level. You're putting them at the same level when one must precede the other.

[Stratovarius]

Few tweaks and I think I have that sorted.

Race: Bamboo Spirit Folk
Alignment: NG
Stats: Str 8/Dex 10/Con 14/Int 12/Wis 16/Cha 16 (required: Con 13, Wis 13)

Level  Classes              Skills Needed   Skills                          Feats
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1      Healer 1                             Sur 4, Arc 2, Rel 4, Nat 2      Heighten Spell, Earth Sense (Murky Eyed), Earth Spell (Noncombatant)
2      Warmage 1                            Arc 2, Rel 1
3      Mystic Theurge 1     Arc 6, Rel 6    Arc 2, Rel 1                    Scholar [Kingdoms of Kalamar]
4      Mystic Theurge 2                     Nat 3
5      Mystic Theurge 3                     Nat 3
6      Mystic Theurge 4                     Arc 2                           Touchstone (City of the Dead) [Sandstorm]
7      Sand Shaper 1        Sur 4, Nat 4                     
8      Mystic Theurge 5                   
9      Mystic Theurge 6                                                     Versatile Spellcaster       
10     Mystic Theurge 7                     
11     Arcane Hierophant 1  Arc 8, Nat 8   
12     Arcane Hierophant 2                                                  Extraordinary Spell Aim
13     Arcane Hierophant 3                           
14     Arcane Hierophant 4                 
15     Arcane Hierophant 5                                                  Empower Spell
16     Arcane Hierophant 6                           
17     Arcane Hierophant 7                 
18     Arcane Hierophant 8                                                  Practised Caster (Warmage)
19     Arcane Hierophant 9                           
20     Arcane Hierophant 10                 

Requirements:
Mystic Theurge - Arcana 6, Religion 6, 2nd level Arc + Div
Arcane Heirophant - Arcana 8, Nature 8, BAB 4, non-lawful, 2nd level Arc + Div, Trackless step
Sand Shaper - Nature 4, Survival 4, any neutral, Touchstone (City of the Dead), Arcane caster level 5th.

[Nifft]

You need to meet requirements before you take levels in a PrC.

Mystic Theurge: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks.

You can't take MT 1 as character level 3.


Also it looks like you're trying to get into Sand Shaper and then pay for the Survival prereq using Sand Shaper. That's obviously not legal for exactly the same reason.


This "build" is more hole than sock.

[Stratovarius]

Actually, way back on BG in 2007 or so, there was actually a (very) TO debate about getting in exactly like that, which this build took advantage of, since it let it fit in the level of Sand Shaper. Also, the build has Survival 4 at level 1, so... maybe read the table so you don't end up with egg on your face?

Had to drop the level of Sand Shaper without the TO entry, but it still gets 9th level Warmage, Healer, and Sanctified spells. Adding Sand Shaper back in costs the 9th level Warmage spells.

Race: Bamboo Spirit Folk
Alignment: NG
Stats: Str 8/Dex 10/Con 14/Int 12/Wis 16/Cha 16 (required: Con 13, Wis 13)

Level  Classes              Skills                          Feats
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1      Healer 1             Sur 4, Arc 2, Rel 4, Nat 2      Heighten Spell, Earth Sense (Murky Eyed), Earth Spell (Noncombatant)
2      Warmage 1            Arc 3
3      Warmage 2            Arc 1, Rel 2                    Scholar [Kingdoms of Kalamar]
4      Mystic Theurge 1     Nat 3
5      Mystic Theurge 2     Nat 3
6      Mystic Theurge 3     Arc 2                           
7      Mystic Theurge 4                     
8      Mystic Theurge 5     
9      Mystic Theurge 6                                     
10     Mystic Theurge 7     
11     Arcane Hierophant 1 
12     Arcane Hierophant 2                                 
13     Arcane Hierophant 3           
14     Arcane Hierophant 4 
15     Arcane Hierophant 5                                 
16     Arcane Hierophant 6           
17     Arcane Hierophant 7 
18     Arcane Hierophant 8                                 
19     Arcane Hierophant 9           
20     Arcane Hierophant 10

Requirements:
Mystic Theurge - Arcana 6, Religion 6, 2nd level Arc + Div
Arcane Heirophant - Arcana 8, Nature 8, BAB 4, non-lawful, 2nd level Arc + Div, Trackless step

[nijineko]

how about optimizing a healer - can mix in anything but cleric?

[Stratovarius]

Oh, that's a much easier challenge - this was one that Prime sort of suggested ages ago (see the linked thread in the top post) of mixing the worst Arcane & Divine casters with Mystic Theurge.

A top level Healer just looks like a cleric with Sanctified spells, Rainbow, and other ways to flesh the list back out.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Psi could go Erudite 1 early , and then Sangehirn 1 only perhaps
around level 9 cause it's bad really bad worse than Healer bad.
But throw in Mind Mage and a Psiotheurgist for super high CLs.

[Nifft]

so... maybe read the table so you don't end up with egg on your face?

You're welcome.

[SorO_Lost]

Given that the Warmage get 9th level Spells, crowd-control, and save-or-die effects I'm not really sure where the "worst" part comes in. Maybe it's about a Arcane Hierophant vs Druid deal, you're better than 80% of the Classes in the game but you're not the best. *shrugs*

To that end, I suppose I'll suggest Arcane Preparation, Practical/Easy Metamagic(echoing spell), Arcane Thesis(greater arcane fusion), Knowstone of Greater Arcane Fusion, and crank that CL. You can just cast a Spell every round, Limits per Day are for pussies.

[Stratovarius]

It was from a long ago joke by Prime about having a party of the worst class that fits each bucket. So smush the two caster together and use the MT, which is the worst dual-class caster PrC, and end up with this challenge.