Fly speed vs jump check

[sirpercival]

What sort of bonuses does having a fly speed give on jump checks?  I know that raptorans & dragonborns get a +10 racial bonus as soon as they can glide... does the actual fly speed give more, the same, etc?  What about for an extremely slow fly speed (like 5 feet)?

[Wiggins]

Should there be a separate "Glide Speed" for all flyers? In which case could said speed take into account the momentum that the creature already had?

In which case do we need rules for purposefully diving, making concentration and strength checks to re-open your wings in mid dive, to gain a far higher glide speed and an effectively higher fly speed?

Would such a manoeuvre require a feat?

[Kethrian]

Technically, fly speeds do not add to jump checks.  That said, a +10 to jump could be given to any creature with wings capable of at least gliding.  If a creature flies without using wings, such as a beholder, it shouldn't get a jump bonus, because it isn't just jumping, it's outright flying.

[DonQuixote]

Technically, the ability to fly doesn't necessarily mean that you'd be good at jumping.  If you were to de-feather a bird's wings, it would probably be pretty terrible at jumping.

Now, you might argue that you could fly during your jump and thereby improve the result of your jump, but I would say that that's just using your fly speed.

[littha]

Technically, the ability to fly doesn't necessarily mean that you'd be good at jumping.  If you were to de-feather a bird's wings, it would probably be pretty terrible at jumping.

Now, you might argue that you could fly during your jump and thereby improve the result of your jump, but I would say that that's just using your fly speed.

I think the point is using a beat of the wings to give you extra force on liftoff.

[NunoM]

Well... grabbing the rules from the Dragonlance setting on draconians (which i find interesting since they have wings, but don't have a fly speed): that doesn't give them any kind of bonus to any skill whatsoever... They have the "Glide" ability, which allows them to negate damage from falling. That's all.

Having a fly speed might actually give a bonus to jump, in my book... i'd go with the quality of flying the creature has:
Clumsy and Poor = 0
Average: +5
Good: +10
Perfect: +15 => at this level of quality, i assume the creature doesn't even notice when jumping ends and flying begins; flying just comes natural to it once it's in the air.

Also, i assume that the creature has a land speed AND a fly speed.

However, if the creature uses wings to fly, it may not be able to use them if it's in a confined space and therefore not be able to tap into this bonus.

[sirpercival]

But low-level raptorans and winged dragonborn (and others with the Dragon Wings feat) have a glide speed, but no fly speed.  However, both get a +10 racial to Jump.

[NunoM]

But low-level raptorans and winged dragonborn (and others with the Dragon Wings feat) have a glide speed, but no fly speed.  However, both get a +10 racial to Jump.

I didn't check the winged dragonborn, but the Glide ability for raptorans doesn't give them a help with jump, only another racial perk does: "Wing-Aided Movement", which is self-explanatory.

The "Dragon Wings" feat is used exactly to give the character those same perks.

Relating directly to the topic:
If the plan is to give "Glide" to all flyers, that wouldn't, according to the various rules around, help them much with jumping, but it would with falling. (Keep it simple: just give the same names to the same ability across the board)

...and if you want to give every flyer this edge, just give them all the "Dragon Wings" feat for free. Name it "Angel wings" for celestials if you wish... You don't need anything else.

[sirpercival]

This comes up because I'm homebrewing something that gives a 5' fly speed.  Since it's really slow, I was wondering if any Jump bonuses came with it.

[NunoM]

hmm... if that's the case, being that slow, either the wings are too small or the creature is minimal.
If it's the first, the flight maneuverability won't be that good, so it wouldn't make much sense in giving the creature bonuses for using the wings. My reasoning is: if the wings require that much concentration and effort just to do their job, they won't do that much difference or be at all useful when you're not concentrating on them.

If it's the latter, however, yes, it would make sense and the maneuverability could be the absolute best, but you have to take into account the maximum height/length a small creature can jump, no matter the result of the die...

EDIT: if it's a magical item, you could probably include the bonus to jump as a separate ability.

[Jackinthegreen]

Note the rules for jumping and how a long jump's DC is effectively equal to the distance traveled. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm

One way to look at it is having a fly speed should grant you that much extra jump distance, so fly speed 5 would grant a +5 bonus to jump checks.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I have a related question, which I thought was what this thread was about.

Say you have the Fly spell active, for flight speed of 60 ft, or natural flight with a lot of speed.  Your land speed is 30 ft.  Jump has a rule about being limited to your speed for how far you can travel as a move action with a jump check, with very long jump results requiring potentially several move actions to "complete."*  Would you be able to use your much higher fly speed as a basis for how far you could travel, or are you limited to going by land speed, by RAW?

Basically a hypothetical since you'd probably just...fly at that point.  But still curious.

*"Action
None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump."
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm

[NunoM]

I wouldn't say "jump bonus = fly speed"! That would mean a +30 bonus for a fly speed of 30ft.. That's just too much, in my book. That's why i suggested a bonus related to the flight maneuverability, which is valid across the board.

StreamOfTheSky: Yeah, at mid jump the flyer would probably just start flying, but since we're discussing jump speed, i assume the flyer doesn't want to start flying... he/she just wants to use the wings to help the jump. So the basis should remain the same: distance/height jumped depends on the jump check modified by the natural land speed.

Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a -6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet.

In my view, the reason why the "Fly" spell doesn't help with jump is: the target doesn't sprout wings, so there are no natural aids to the aerodynamics of the subject.