Shinigami

[FireInTheSky]

It hasn't been evaluated yet.
If you like it and your DM approves it, feel free to play it.

I'm working on an update for the tables, and wasn't sure if I should include it or not. That's all.

[Geigan]

A few notes since I was considering this for a campaign:
Ok, so changing over Riverside View stuff to Charisma. Neat. Wisdom seems like an odd choice for a secondary considering nothing else in the class keys off it, though I suppose your Profession(Ferryman) checks will appreciate it.

Any reason for not just having full BaB? It's an initiator not a caster, and the monster you linked seems to have a full Base Attack for its HD.

The maneuver recovery might be a bit too easy. You're basically recovering a maneuver every time you hit something, so you'll be spamming maneuvers all day discounting counters and such.

Soul Seeker seems a bit annoying since you might actually need the money from the feat to kill something, though I suppose you could just murder a commoner or whatever. It's just a bit of a hassle when the default feat might have been preferable, even if the auto acquire side quest bit is kind of neat.

I assume weighing the heart's detect etc etc have CL equal to HD? Relevant for anti-divination in some cases. Only brought it up, because my GM did.

Tongues does seem a little late. It seems relevant to getting their job done if they need to find whoever goes by the name they were given.

Weight of Mortality does seem like a bit much. Cowering is about as strong a fear effect as you can get, and upgrades to paralyzed later? Save or lose with no action on your part is pretty powerful. Most with a fear aura get frightened at best, even if that's not much better for the victim if you set it up properly so they can't run.

Also "and may allow some creatures to be unaffected by it." Define "some"

Expiration Date seems like a massive headache for the GM. You give them a big out for whenever they would be wrong, but it's something they constantly have to think about and you can ask it for literally anyone you look at so you could easily drive them nuts with it.

Question on Soul Bind, are these any different from those you reap? Can you send them on their way for Soul Seeker? For that matter Soul Seeker implies that you can reap them to collect and the fully reap them to send them off. Does that mean you can carry them with you for whenever? Any notes on storing those or what have you?

Death Scribe seems neat, but mentions nothing about the ability score bonuses you get from the class unless that was meant to be included? Int over Cha seems pointless if your best score is bound to be Cha. Otherwise it's got a lot of neat stuff.

[Anomander]

Any reason for not just having full BaB? It's an initiator not a caster, and the monster you linked seems to have a full Base Attack for its HD.

The original likely has full BaB because it is an Outsider (unless PF works differently). Otherwise, I thought the same but but I think this one is more in line with the swordsage; Death would be more focused on maneuver usage than straight combat. Kind of a martial caster.

The maneuver recovery might be a bit too easy. You're basically recovering a maneuver every time you hit something, so you'll be spamming maneuvers all day discounting counters and such.

I based it on the Frostwind Virago and thhe Nuclear Dragon's, since monsters with innate martial talents usually have an efficient recovery system.

Every time the Frostwind Virago sucessfully damages an oponent with Icy touch, she  can recover one expended maneuver gained from this class.

Every time the Nuclear Dragon successfully damages an opponent with either its bite attack or its Control Rod, he  can recover one expended maneuver.

I could limit it further by specifying it can only recover one maneuver per round this way or/and that it applies when it isn't done as part of a Strike maneuver. What do you think?

Soul Seeker seems a bit annoying since you might actually need the money from the feat to kill something, though I suppose you could just murder a commoner or whatever. It's just a bit of a hassle when the default feat might have been preferable, even if the auto acquire side quest bit is kind of neat.

You're right. Probably too harsh and it wasn't meant to promote killing only for the class ability. I could change it to at least once a week though to better give the idea that you're death and not supposed to slack off when there are souls to reap, I could instead change it to losing the benefit if you spend 24 hours without reaping someone you killed.
And get it back after getting a specific target from that ability as a redeeming quest.
That or simply remove that limit.

I assume weighing the heart's detect etc etc have CL equal to HD? Relevant for anti-divination in some cases. Only brought it up, because my GM did.

Correct. I'll clarify it.

Tongues does seem a little late. It seems relevant to getting their job done if they need to find whoever goes by the name they were given.

It does indeed feel rather inappropriate, not necessarily for the targets but for the whole "HALLO. IT IS TIME TO GO." thing happens indeed quite late.
Level 5 would be cool? Nothing too interesting there anyway.

Weight of Mortality does seem like a bit much. Cowering is about as strong a fear effect as you can get, and upgrades to paralyzed later? Save or lose with no action on your part is pretty powerful. Most with a fear aura get frightened at best, even if that's not much better for the victim if you set it up properly so they can't run.

Actually, I think I'll scratch it entirely. I don't think it should have a fear/death effect since the shinigami mostly reaps souls rather than actually kill stuff.
It'll be a partia incorporeality. The shinigami can walk through stuff and the higher effect has people having difficulties really seeing/remembering it is there and I'll throw in an invisibility SLA.
Aiming for the Diskworld Death.

Expiration Date seems like a massive headache for the GM. You give them a big out for whenever they would be wrong, but it's something they constantly have to think about and you can ask it for literally anyone you look at so you could easily drive them nuts with it.

I DM'd myself and so far I'd say that would be rank on the annoying scale along with "I keep seeing the magical auras of everything. Describe hem all." and being able to read the minds of other characters (though I like DMing that).
I can make it something you have to focus or limit it only to the date of a natural death. For the unatural death options, the shinigami would need a special hourglass (or similar, like a special candle) artifact keyed to a specific individual to know the precise time of death (so they can be there on time to reap the soul).

Question on Soul Bind, are these any different from those you reap? Can you send them on their way for Soul Seeker? For that matter Soul Seeker implies that you can reap them to collect and the fully reap them to send them off. Does that mean you can carry them with you for whenever? Any notes on storing those or what have you?

Those acquired from Soul Bind were meant to be usable for Destroy Soul while those collected weren't.
Though thinking about it does indeed seem like a very low level soul bind, technically. I'll scratch the collecting and skip it right to the sending off.

Death Scribe seems neat, but mentions nothing about the ability score bonuses you get from the class unless that was meant to be included? Int over Cha seems pointless if your best score is bound to be Cha. Otherwise it's got a lot of neat stuff.

Hm. It was originally meant to provide an early multi-classing option into the Scholar.
Honestly I think a full Int conversion of this monster class is worth two feats, as most are.
The Shinigami could simply pick this one to take care of the issue if he means to get far into the monster class:

Malformed Mind [Monstrous]
Prerequisite: 1st level OR Monster Hybrid feat, upon taking the first level of a monster class, or before taking levels of a monster class.
In either case, you must choose the monster class this feat is applied to.
Benefit: Choose two Mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma). Whenever either of the two would be boosted by your monstrous class progression in the class you have taken this feat for, instead the other ability score is boosted.

Thanks for the input!

[Geigan]

Any reason for not just having full BaB? It's an initiator not a caster, and the monster you linked seems to have a full Base Attack for its HD.

The original likely has full BaB because it is an Outsider (unless PF works differently). Otherwise, I thought the same but but I think this one is more in line with the swordsage; Death would be more focused on maneuver usage than straight combat. Kind of a martial caster.

If it had a swordsage's broad selection of disciplines I could see that, but this is restricted to one school even with a fairly large number of maneuvers known and readied (though it's about on par with typical base Touhou school access). If you're making a comparison to Frostwind Virago I could maybe see it, but that class gets touch attacks on top of a school largely focused around AoE, ranged attacks, and battlefield control. Riverside View has a lot of weird supernatural stuff, but I'd say the main bent of the school is still focused around a melee warrior that still needs to connect with its attacks to land its effects (even if you can make big explosions with the right combo of spirits). Compare to Marraenoloth for instance, which still has plenty of weird magical effects sprinkled in and rocks a full BaB. You do say you have experience DMing for it though, so you tell me if it really plays that way.

The maneuver recovery might be a bit too easy. You're basically recovering a maneuver every time you hit something, so you'll be spamming maneuvers all day discounting counters and such.

I based it on the Frostwind Virago and thhe Nuclear Dragon's, since monsters with innate martial talents usually have an efficient recovery system.

Every time the Frostwind Virago sucessfully damages an oponent with Icy touch, she  can recover one expended maneuver gained from this class.

Every time the Nuclear Dragon successfully damages an opponent with either its bite attack or its Control Rod, he  can recover one expended maneuver.

I could limit it further by specifying it can only recover one maneuver per round this way or/and that it applies when it isn't done as part of a Strike maneuver. What do you think?

Eh, I guess if it's the norm anyway for these classes I don't really see a point in nerfing it. I was comparing to Marraenoloth which has to actually kill someone to recover. If you feel the nerf is warranted, once per round that way seems reasonable.

Tongues does seem a little late. It seems relevant to getting their job done if they need to find whoever goes by the name they were given.

It does indeed feel rather inappropriate, not necessarily for the targets but for the whole "HALLO. IT IS TIME TO GO." thing happens indeed quite late.
Level 5 would be cool? Nothing too interesting there anyway.

That's a pretty funny image, though I think the conversation from Soul Seeker might have cleared that up. It's still a good idea to move it up though I think.

Soul Seeker seems a bit annoying since you might actually need the money from the feat to kill something, though I suppose you could just murder a commoner or whatever. It's just a bit of a hassle when the default feat might have been preferable, even if the auto acquire side quest bit is kind of neat.

You're right. Probably too harsh and it wasn't meant to promote killing only for the class ability. I could change it to at least once a week though to better give the idea that you're death and not supposed to slack off when there are souls to reap, I could instead change it to losing the benefit if you spend 24 hours without reaping someone you killed.
And get it back after getting a specific target from that ability as a redeeming quest.
That or simply remove that limit.

Since you removed the holding onto souls bit, yeah I'd say the limit removal is fine. Otherwise you had an incentive to hold onto souls, only to reap them when you actually needed cash.

Weight of Mortality does seem like a bit much. Cowering is about as strong a fear effect as you can get, and upgrades to paralyzed later? Save or lose with no action on your part is pretty powerful. Most with a fear aura get frightened at best, even if that's not much better for the victim if you set it up properly so they can't run.

Actually, I think I'll scratch it entirely. I don't think it should have a fear/death effect since the shinigami mostly reaps souls rather than actually kill stuff.
It'll be a partia incorporeality. The shinigami can walk through stuff and the higher effect has people having difficulties really seeing/remembering it is there and I'll throw in an invisibility SLA.
Aiming for the Diskworld Death.

*shrug* It seemed alright, it was just a matter of severity since plenty of other monsters have fear auras. The linked one doesn't have any basis in either of these effects though, so I suppose it comes down to whichever you prefer. The additional invisibility SLA almost seems unnecessary, but I suppose it fits your desired aesthetic. Your reasoning for the change seems sound as far as thematic concerns go.

Expiration Date seems like a massive headache for the GM. You give them a big out for whenever they would be wrong, but it's something they constantly have to think about and you can ask it for literally anyone you look at so you could easily drive them nuts with it.

I DM'd myself and so far I'd say that would be rank on the annoying scale along with "I keep seeing the magical auras of everything. Describe hem all." and being able to read the minds of other characters (though I like DMing that).
I can make it something you have to focus or limit it only to the date of a natural death. For the unatural death options, the shinigami would need a special hourglass (or similar, like a special candle) artifact keyed to a specific individual to know the precise time of death (so they can be there on time to reap the soul).

Yeah concentration seems like a prudent way to discourage giving one's GM a headache. No need to get too finicky with it.

Death Scribe seems neat, but mentions nothing about the ability score bonuses you get from the class unless that was meant to be included? Int over Cha seems pointless if your best score is bound to be Cha. Otherwise it's got a lot of neat stuff.

Hm. It was originally meant to provide an early multi-classing option into the Scholar.
Honestly I think a full Int conversion of this monster class is worth two feats, as most are.
The Shinigami could simply pick this one to take care of the issue if he means to get far into the monster class:

Malformed Mind [Monstrous]
Prerequisite: 1st level OR Monster Hybrid feat, upon taking the first level of a monster class, or before taking levels of a monster class.
In either case, you must choose the monster class this feat is applied to.
Benefit: Choose two Mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma). Whenever either of the two would be boosted by your monstrous class progression in the class you have taken this feat for, instead the other ability score is boosted.

Thanks for the input!

I think I forgot that feat existed since it was buried in the back of the monster feat threads. That about solves the problem, though my distaste for the amount of feat taxing needed just to make it work with a particular playstyle is still a personal qualm. My usual group is quite fond of the characteristic variant for a reason.

[Anomander]

If it had a swordsage's broad selection of disciplines I could see that, but this is restricted to one school even with a fairly large number of maneuvers known and readied (though it's about on par with typical base Touhou school access). If you're making a comparison to Frostwind Virago I could maybe see it, but that class gets touch attacks on top of a school largely focused around AoE, ranged attacks, and battlefield control. Riverside View has a lot of weird supernatural stuff, but I'd say the main bent of the school is still focused around a melee warrior that still needs to connect with its attacks to land its effects (even if you can make big explosions with the right combo of spirits). Compare to Marraenoloth for instance, which still has plenty of weird magical effects sprinkled in and rocks a full BaB. You do say you have experience DMing for it though, so you tell me if it really plays that way.

Toubou disciplines have plenty of variations within themselves so the usual diversity is mostly covered.
The swordsage's many maneuvers also include mostly some requiring hitting the target as well.
The FV getting a touch attack is actually a double-edged issue since you give abilities to a 'martial caster' that demand getting into melee range. A caster does not want to be within melee range (especially if the rest of its kit allows it to stay at a relatively safe distance).
I do agree that it'd be better to give it full Bab nonetheless. Though to compensate for it I nerfed Soul Slash and its effective weapon size independent of the Shinimagi's. It limits the optimization of Soul Slash and decreases the power of an ability that doesn't depend on succeeding an attack roll for the ability to have better odds of succeeding attack rolls for other stuff.

Eh, I guess if it's the norm anyway for these classes I don't really see a point in nerfing it. I was comparing to Marraenoloth which has to actually kill someone to recover. If you feel the nerf is warranted, once per round that way seems reasonable.

I put it in after all since I personally think they should all have that limit.

I think I forgot that feat existed since it was buried in the back of the monster feat threads. That about solves the problem, though my distaste for the amount of feat taxing needed just to make it work with a particular playstyle is still a personal qualm. My usual group is quite fond of the characteristic variant for a reason.

I'm not too fond of feat heavy playstyles either but I'm concerned with Death Scribe just becoming Malformed Mind++. It's already pretty neat. Your DM can likely allow Malformed Mind and its physical score equivalent in the Characteristic Variant list to fix the issue though I could perhaps meet halfway and give partial conversion.

[Geigan]

If it had a swordsage's broad selection of disciplines I could see that, but this is restricted to one school even with a fairly large number of maneuvers known and readied (though it's about on par with typical base Touhou school access). If you're making a comparison to Frostwind Virago I could maybe see it, but that class gets touch attacks on top of a school largely focused around AoE, ranged attacks, and battlefield control. Riverside View has a lot of weird supernatural stuff, but I'd say the main bent of the school is still focused around a melee warrior that still needs to connect with its attacks to land its effects (even if you can make big explosions with the right combo of spirits). Compare to Marraenoloth for instance, which still has plenty of weird magical effects sprinkled in and rocks a full BaB. You do say you have experience DMing for it though, so you tell me if it really plays that way.

Toubou disciplines have plenty of variations within themselves so the usual diversity is mostly covered.
The swordsage's many maneuvers also include mostly some requiring hitting the target as well.
The FV getting a touch attack is actually a double-edged issue since you give abilities to a 'martial caster' that demand getting into melee range. A caster does not want to be within melee range (especially if the rest of its kit allows it to stay at a relatively safe distance).
I do agree that it'd be better to give it full Bab nonetheless. Though to compensate for it I nerfed Soul Slash and its effective weapon size independent of the Shinimagi's. It limits the optimization of Soul Slash and decreases the power of an ability that doesn't depend on succeeding an attack roll for the ability to have better odds of succeeding attack rolls for other stuff.

Eh, I guess if it's the norm anyway for these classes I don't really see a point in nerfing it. I was comparing to Marraenoloth which has to actually kill someone to recover. If you feel the nerf is warranted, once per round that way seems reasonable.

I put it in after all since I personally think they should all have that limit.

Those both seem fair with the change to full BaB. If you're more reliant on attacks now, the reliance on hitting attacks that aren't maneuvers would have arguably been a better option and somewhat in line with similar initiators. But the once per round recovery will insure that they inevitably run out over the course of the fight eventually, if they're too spam heavy or aren't landing their hits. Unexpected Ending helps with that anyway, so I think it's probably fine?

Nerf to Soul Slash seems warranted given the change.

I think I forgot that feat existed since it was buried in the back of the monster feat threads. That about solves the problem, though my distaste for the amount of feat taxing needed just to make it work with a particular playstyle is still a personal qualm. My usual group is quite fond of the characteristic variant for a reason.

I'm not too fond of feat heavy playstyles either but I'm concerned with Death Scribe just becoming Malformed Mind++. It's already pretty neat. Your DM can likely allow Malformed Mind and its physical score equivalent in the Characteristic Variant list to fix the issue though I could perhaps meet halfway and give partial conversion.

Not changing it is totally fair by the paradigm of these classes, I was just whinging some more.

I do still feel that Expiration Date should require concentration at least, but if you're confident that GMs can handle it I'll drop it.

Oh also, is the stance progression being delayed a level after you'd normally have access to each new stance in Riverside view intentional?

Anyway, thank you for responding to the feedback. I plan to have fun with the class.

[oslecamo]

Eh, I guess if it's the norm anyway for these classes I don't really see a point in nerfing it. I was comparing to Marraenoloth which has to actually kill someone to recover. If you feel the nerf is warranted, once per round that way seems reasonable.

It's not the norm. Frostwind Virago's Icy Touch can only be used in certain specific conditions, none of which are "when using a maneuver", and even if it could, only a very few Crystallized Silver maneuvers allow you to make melee attacks in the first place. In the nuclear dragon, the control rod is a weapon that will never make more than one attack per round, and most of its maneuvers don't actually allow you to make attacks with said rod for the matter (or a bite).

But Riverside View not only has a lot of maneuvers with melee attacks, this class even goes all the way to make everything you have count as a scythe. Even with the "nerf", it's nothing short of a free maneuver recover every round, meaning it'll never run out of maneuvers, and can just spam its best one non-stop for all eternity.

[Raineh Daze]

Correction: the Control Rod is a weapon. It gets iterative attacks as normal, assuming that this is the same feature as in the normal Divine Flame school. Otherwise, carry on.

[Anomander]

I do still feel that Expiration Date should require concentration at least, but if you're confident that GMs can handle it I'll drop it.

It does indeed have to concentrate now. I neglected to mention it in my reply.

Oh also, is the stance progression being delayed a level after you'd normally have access to each new stance in Riverside view intentional?

It was indeed. The way it works isn't impacted much by that though I'll set the 3rd level stand on time to better scale the gains of abilities at level 5.

Anyway, thank you for responding to the feedback. I plan to have fun with the class.

Best wishes!

But Riverside View not only has a lot of maneuvers with melee attacks, this class even goes all the way to make everything you have count as a scythe. Even with the "nerf", it's nothing short of a free maneuver recover every round, meaning it'll never run out of maneuvers, and can just spam its best one non-stop for all eternity.

Very true. (it turns the weapon into a scythe, though), especially for the FV.

I'd prefer a different recovery system as well. Limiting the scythe damage to normal attack actions (rather than those done as part of a Strike or abilities like Soul Slash) (though those of an AoO would qualify) should avoid spamming.
Especially considering the attack has to deal damage instead of merely having to be done.
It could also go in a different direction. Such as recovering one or more maneuvers whenever it rolls the number 4 or 13 on a d20 roll or threaten/confirms a critical hit.

Correction: the Control Rod is a weapon. It gets iterative attacks as normal, assuming that this is the same feature as in the normal Divine Flame school. Otherwise, carry on.

Only if it is used as a club or Light Energy "High-Tension Blade". I would say the club option wouldn't be available to the ND since its in its throat only for the purpose of ranged attacks. It gets the bite for melee attacks. The energy blade dans would likely work though. I imagine it would visually be very similar to the force blade breath of the purple dragon.

[Raineh Daze]

I'd avoid tying maneuver recover to RNG. Especially not specific dice rolls.

[Geigan]

But Riverside View not only has a lot of maneuvers with melee attacks, this class even goes all the way to make everything you have count as a scythe. Even with the "nerf", it's nothing short of a free maneuver recover every round, meaning it'll never run out of maneuvers, and can just spam its best one non-stop for all eternity.

Very true. (it turns the weapon into a scythe, though), especially for the FV.

I'd prefer a different recovery system as well. Limiting the scythe damage to normal attack actions (rather than those done as part of a Strike or abilities like Soul Slash) (though those of an AoO would qualify) should avoid spamming.
Especially considering the attack has to deal damage instead of merely having to be done.
It could also go in a different direction. Such as recovering one or more maneuvers whenever it rolls the number 4 or 13 on a d20 roll or threaten/confirms a critical hit.

Limiting the scythe recovery to normal actions seems like the way to go, by way of argument that it mirrors Gate Guard which is a melee warrior type touhou initiator similarly restricted to one weapon type that it focuses on. You'll want to remember to discount attacks influenced by your own boosts as well.

I was thinking random recovery could possibly work, but feels kind of imprecise for a god of death.

I argued for the once per round because I felt that was actually weaker than being able to recover multiple on a full attack in one turn, but having to take a turn off of using maneuvers in some fashion is a rather common limiting factor.

[Anomander]

Right now it is at once per round for damage dealt via regular attacks only. Excluded Strikes but not Boosts.
Less recovery and perhaps also less reliable than the Gate Guard's though I'm not sure using the term 'opponent' instead of 'enemy' makes it different as far as attacking random stuff or nothing as if it was an enemy works.
We can explain hitting the empty air though I'm not sure about the damage part, which is what's actually required.

Until a better recovery method is found, at least.