Author Topic: Ardent Gish/Tashalatora  (Read 4104 times)

Offline GawainBS

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 37
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Ardent Gish/Tashalatora
« on: January 12, 2012, 03:31:09 PM »
Hello!

I'm having difficulties getting the Ardent-gish/Dominant Ideal action economy abuse and unlimited PP concept (via Incarnum) to work. Can anyone please explain this step-by-step?

Consider all (official) sources (even PF) fair game.

Thanks in advance!

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Ardent Gish/Tashalatora
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 05:14:05 PM »
Recharge side of things ...

Azuran (human) gets 1 essentia point.
Midnight Augmentation gets 1 more ... probably level 6 here.
Put both into Bestow Power, every day.
At first augmentation BP is costing 4 ppoints to get 4 back.
Just need 1 more ppoint discount = gold.

(time crunch)(the bg site had/has and has here numerous threads)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 05:23:49 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline GawainBS

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 37
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Ardent Gish/Tashalatora
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2012, 10:25:44 AM »
See, I'm failing to see the "infinite" part here. Good, you invest those temp PP, and use them for Bestow Power, preferably with a Torque of Power Preservation. But how do you get those temp PP back, so you can keep manifesting BP?

Offline AyeGill

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 309
  • Can eternal lie, may not be dead
    • View Profile
Re: Ardent Gish/Tashalatora
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 02:23:03 PM »
I really don't understand what it is you're saying you don't get.

You stack up enough various discounts so that bestow power costs less than it grants. You then use bestow power, costing, let's say, three power points, and you get four four power points, for a net gain of one power point per action(this can of course be optimized to give many more PP, but you get the idea). You repeat until you have the desired number of PP.

Then there's all that stuff about manifesting synchronicity linked to synchronicity with all sorts of metapower and discounts and augment to get it all low enough that you can make free actions out of power points, but the basic PP recharge method is the one I've described above.

Offline Kremti

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 190
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Ardent Gish/Tashalatora
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2012, 03:34:16 PM »
I really don't understand what it is you're saying you don't get.

You stack up enough various discounts so that bestow power costs less than it grants. You then use bestow power, costing, let's say, three power points, and you get four four power points, for a net gain of one power point per action(this can of course be optimized to give many more PP, but you get the idea). You repeat until you have the desired number of PP.
It is simple in theory, but is not that simple in practice though.  The Devil is in the details.

OK, so let's start with Bestow Power.  You get 2 pp, when you spend 3 pp.  If you can reduce the cost to 1pp, you gain pp.  But Midnight Augumentation only reduce the cost to Augument, so this is no go. 

So, let's start Augumenting Bestow Power.  You get 4pp, when you spend 6 pp (3 for the base, 3 Augumentation).  If you can reduce the cost to 3pp, you gain pp.  However, Midnight Augumentation can only reduce the cost to augument to down to 1 but no further.  So, only with Midnight Augumentation, at this level, you still don't get ahead.  Let's go for more...

So, you get 6pp when you spend 9pp.  If you can reduce the cost by 4, you gain pp.  So Midnight Augumentation must be 4-essentia variety.  So in the very basic level, this requires ECL16 (Midnight Augumentation can receive maximum of 4 essentia at ECL16), and ways to have 4 essentia (Midnight Augumentation provides 1, Incarnum Race like Azurin provides 1, and Bonus Essentia feat grants 2).  Now, if this comes online at ECL 16, it's a bit too late.  There are so many better things we can do at this level, we need to have this coming online much earlier...

Improved Essentia Capacity will bump the maximum essentia capacity of feats by one.  So, by spending another feat, we can have this coming on line at level 11.

So, at this point, we have a skeleton of Azurin+Midnight Augumentation+Bonus Essentia+Improved Essentia Capacity -> Level 11 power point recharge.  Not bad, but not great.  Can we do better?

Instead of exclusively relying on Midnight Augumentation, maybe finding other ways to reduce cost?  Metapower: Link Power (pp1 Power) comes to my mind.  Now, if we can reduce get 4 pp, by spending 6pp down by one more, this might work.  Midnight Augumentation at ECL 6 reduces this by 2.

But wait...metapsionic feats like Link Power requires spending Psionic Focus.  And reducing Augumentation cost using Midnight Augumentation also costs Psionic Focus.  So we need 2 Psionic Foci.  So, we need Psicrystal Containment.

So, with this set up, we have Azurin + Midnight Augumentation + Link Power + Metapower: Link Power + Psicrystal Affinity + Psicrystal Containment.  At ECL 6.  After 5 feats (Feat Leech, anyone?).  And because you need to refocus both yourself AND Psicrystal, recharge is rather painfully slow.  There are ways to speed that up (Psionic Meditation, and Action Economy).

The idea is pretty simple, but execution starts to get a little complicated once you realize, "Oh, I can't do this, and can't do that, and that's not really useful at this level, and how many feats do we got? And..."

-K

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Ardent Gish/Tashalatora
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 05:00:44 PM »
[timecrunchsucks]
EDIT --- partially ninja'd by Kremti

Mid Aug feat requires the 1 ppoint aug to still happen.
Something else can reduce that 1 ppoint.
The Torc works ... via magic mart or make your own.
The Earth Sense and Earth Power feats also work.

Azuran (human)
1) Earth Sense
3) Earth Power
6) Mid Aug + 2 essentia points

Yes it is a lot of feat infrastructure. The Combo goes:
Bestow Power aug'd once. Normal cost is 6 ppoints.
Now costs just 3 ppoints. Output is 4 ppoints.
Advantage 1 ppoint for the effort. Repeat 'til happy.

Dominant Ideal at 10 gets rid of the 1 Psi Focus need.
Here you stack on Linked Metapsi and Metapower feats.
1st level power + Linked + Aug'd Bestow + Mid Aug feat + Metapower
= no psi focus needed , normal (1+6=) 7 ppoint cost ,
Mid Aug reduces 2 ppoints. Metapower 2 more.
Now costs just 3 ppoints. Output is 4 ppoints.
Advantage 1 ppoint for the effort. Repeat 'til happy.
** Advantage also ... no need for either the Torc or Earth feats, and you'd pick Linked anyway.
Assumes Bestow Power is on the DI Mantle via Substitute Powers.
or
Bestow Power + linked + Bestow Power + Torc + Metapower
... gets rid of the Mid Aug feat.


I still really really ought to do the recharge handbook I keep promising.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 05:04:54 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Kremti

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 190
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Ardent Gish/Tashalatora
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 05:06:17 PM »
The Torc works ... via magic mart or make your own.
Unfortunately, Torc got an update in Magic Item Compendium, it's now "5 times a day" item...

-K

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Ardent Gish/Tashalatora
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 05:19:49 PM »
Yes = shucks.


or


Yes, But !
MIC Torc ... versus ... SRD Torc = take the SRD Torc  :D
Yeah I know, the Psi guys got a little grumpy around the CPsi time period, and after.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline GawainBS

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 37
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Ardent Gish/Tashalatora
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2012, 08:12:04 AM »
Thanks, Cremti & DM Golem, for the detailed explanation. The Torque nerf is a partypooper, though. :eh