Author Topic: I found a lovely spell...  (Read 10579 times)

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: I found a lovely spell...
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2012, 05:56:44 PM »
Yes, sleeping targets are considered willing... but seems like the job of a coup de grace...

I've always been against this interpretation for the insane things it ushers in, but I'm in the minority there... *sigh*
It ushers in a lot of insane things indeed, and should probably be common-sense houseruled in many cases, but it's not an interpretation. It's stated explicitly in the PHB.

What's more, IS a sleeping or otherwise helpless target always considered willing? Rules quotation (not Sage or CustServ)?

From the SRD and PHB, page 175:
Quote
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Emphasis mine.

Unconscious != sleeping.

Loss of consciousness must not be confused with altered states of consciousness, such as delirium (when the person is confused and only partially responsive to the environment), normal sleep, hypnosis, and other altered states in which the person responds to stimuli.

Consider it this way. A deep sleeper may not hear you yell at him to wake up, but it is very likely if you shove her or her out of bed they wake up. An unconscious person wouldn't. An unconscious person may have obtained that state from a harsh blow to the head from a car crash, or ODed on drugs, or lapsed into a coma from a preexisting condition. They have been reduced to a mentally helpless state opposed to a sleeping personal simply being physically helpless (such as immobile, bound, grappled, or paralyzed).

Sleeping people still get their will saves.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 06:05:18 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Amechra

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Re: I found a lovely spell...
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2012, 06:10:09 PM »
I actually thought of a successful way to slip this to your target (let's assume we want to assassinate the king, or whatever).

1. Make this spell into a Potion.
2. Cast Prestidigitation, and use it to alter the flavor and color into that of [tasty beverage] of your choice.
3. Put it in an appropriate container; ensorcel the contents to remove their aura of magic (Nystul's Magical Aura makes a nice stopgap measure, though at higher levels, something more potent is probably more appropriate.)
4. Hand it to the Rogue, and have them trade off the drink at some point.
5. ???
6. Profit!

As a DM, I would be totally fine with it if one of my players thought this up; it shows initiative and creative thinking on the part of the player.

Oh, and as an added bonus... Delay Spell and Fell Animate are fun metamagic to apply to this spell.

Finally, something that probably wasn't an intended use... a final measure for a spell, much like a cyanide capsule; the spy triggers the spell, thus killing themselves before questioning can begin (of course, they are going to add some other spell in there to prevent Speak with Dead.)
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: I found a lovely spell...
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2012, 06:14:08 PM »
Unconscious =/= sleeping.

Sleeping people still get their will saves.

Hmm, the rules imply you are correct.
Quote from: from the rules compendium
Helpless: ...sleeping, unconscious...

I can find similar lists throughout the rules. Sleeping and Unconscious are always discussed separately. Therefore, they are separate in the rules.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: I found a lovely spell...
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2012, 08:57:41 PM »
Finally, something that probably wasn't an intended use... a final measure for a spell, much like a cyanide capsule; the spy triggers the spell, thus killing themselves before questioning can begin (of course, they are going to add some other spell in there to prevent Speak with Dead.)
Fell Animate works.  Zombies can't talk.
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Offline Amechra

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Re: I found a lovely spell...
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2012, 09:09:49 PM »
And, of course, there is the fact that they now have a zombie to contend with; not any real problem at all, but it will become tiresome for whoever is catching your spies.
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Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: I found a lovely spell...
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2012, 09:30:56 PM »
I often see a Cloistered Cleric dip in diplomancer builds....  This calls for a diplomancer/ fell animate necromancer!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 09:38:14 PM by JohnnyMayHymn »
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Offline SneeR

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Re: I found a lovely spell...
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2012, 09:48:28 PM »
Someone who drinks a potion unwittingly is not a willing recipient to the spell in my eyes. This is also not supported by RAW. A willing target would want to be targeted by the spell, not a tasty beverage. Unless the king is passed out when he drinks the potion... he is not willing to receive a painless death.

To be honest, I am a bit irrationally offended by wanting to weaponize this spell. It is designed to euthanize tortured friends, not assassinate unwitting kings!
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: I found a lovely spell...
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2012, 09:56:55 PM »
Someone who drinks a potion unwittingly is not a willing recipient to the spell in my eyes. This is also not supported by RAW. A willing target would want to be targeted by the spell, not a tasty beverage. Unless the king is passed out when he drinks the potion... he is not willing to receive a painless death.

To be honest, I am a bit irrationally offended by wanting to weaponize this spell. It is designed to euthanize tortured friends, not assassinate unwitting kings!

I am inclined to agree with you on the first part. On the second part, I think finding creative uses for the material is part of the fun.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: I found a lovely spell...
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2012, 10:39:29 PM »
I am inclined to agree with you on the first part. On the second part, I think finding creative uses for the material is part of the fun.
I agree on creative uses. Some times though you need to make sure it's rationalized though. Like Grease is flammable is an assumption based on the name (put to rest but the version that is flammable being a level higher).

But like if you used Maze to hide the party, or used Disintegrating to dig a hole at the end of a Passwall to entomb people then hecks yeah.