What do people expect from a monk?

[ThisGuy01]

I'm thinking of trying to make a homebrew monk class that actually works and hopefully hits upper tier 4 or possibly tier 3.  One thing I want to do is try and include the things people expect out of a monk without just throwing a pile of abilities that are sometimes useful.  Any ideas are appreciated, and please give a general way of implementing your idea if it's something new.

One idea that I've had that I know I've seen others suggest is being able to flurry as standard action instead of full attack which I intend to include and completely agree with.

I also wish to give them the choice between three different abilities, eventually letting them have two of the three, Evasion, Conviction, and Tenacity.  Conviction is basically evasion for will saves, and tenacity is evasion for fort saves.  I could use mettle but I prefer them to be their own abilities. 

Another idea is letting them flurry with any light weapon they're proficient with (while expanding their proficiency list) and possibly throwing in a feat for letting them use a one-handed weapon along with a light or unarmed as part of a flurry.

Please, let the ideas flow.

[SorO_Lost]

The DDO Monk

[Prime32]

Answers to this can include
"Punching people. No other class can punch people."
"Punching people while running around."
"Enlightenment Superpowers."
"Kenshiro."

And while we're plugging fixes...

[TenaciousJ]

I think the 4th edition Monk actually gets some of it right.  It's highly mobile and flurry of blows is just a trigger from landing an attack.  Movement abilities are tied together with standard action abilities.  It's also naturally psionic to give it more "mind over body."

[RobbyPants]

One idea that I've had that I know I've seen others suggest is being able to flurry as standard action instead of full attack which I intend to include and completely agree with.

I also wish to give them the choice between three different abilities, eventually letting them have two of the three, Evasion, Conviction, and Tenacity.  Conviction is basically evasion for will saves, and tenacity is evasion for fort saves.  I could use mettle but I prefer them to be their own abilities. 

Another idea is letting them flurry with any light weapon they're proficient with (while expanding their proficiency list) and possibly throwing in a feat for letting them use a one-handed weapon along with a light or unarmed as part of a flurry.

Those are nice, but I don't know that they necessarily pull the monk up to tier 3 or 4.

For inspiration, you can look at the Tome Monk. Before adding in the Races of War feats, I think it's one of Frank and K's best classes. It's probably a high tier 3 or so, depending on how fancy you get. The point of that class is, the fighting styles do things, which is important as you gain levels.

[SneeR]

If you are thinking of just upgrading the chassis that is the monk now, I would definitely suggest making their AC bonus equal half or 1/3 their level+WIS mod. Add in an ability that lets them base their attack bonus off of WIS rather than STR or DEX. That way WIS is the main stat, and STR and DEX are secondary. Less MAD is more bueno.

Also, all limited use abilities need to be usable AT LEAST wisdom modifier number of times per day. I'm looking at the Dimension Door ripoff and Five-Point Heart-Explodey Technique particularly. None of that 1/week junk.

With their move speed bonuses (which should be untyped), monks make fantastic jumpers. Give them the ability to jump as a swift action, perhaps? Run in, flurry as standard, then leap backwards for profit!

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Monk ??




**


Monk 1 / Erudite 10 / Slayer 9 ... with Tash , maybe Prac Mani feat at some point
Monk 2 / X 1 / Ardent 10 / Slayer 6+ or Anarchic Initiate 7 ... Tash , Prac Mani earlier
And tone down the -festing with either.

[Ziegander]

I think the core essence of the Monk can be distilled into a few characteristics:

A) Monks don't wear armor. They can avoid blows without it.

B) Monks use asian martial arts weapons and can beat you up with their fists.

C) Monks are wise and eventually develop mystical, enlightenment powers.

And really, that's about it. You don't need flurry of blows, or slowfall, or a speed bonus, or really any of the D&D 3.5 Monk crap. If it meets the above three criteria and it does so well, then it should feel like a Monk to just about everyone. Anything else is icing on the cake.

[ThisGuy01]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I think the 4th edition Monk actually gets some of it right.  It's highly mobile and flurry of blows is just a trigger from landing an attack.  Movement abilities are tied together with standard action abilities.  It's also naturally psionic to give it more "mind over body."

Naturally psionic is one of the things that I'm on the fence about.  To me ki doesn't equal psionics but they are very similar, I'm sure some of my bias against psionics is my lack of experience with them, though I wouldn't be opposed to splashing in some psionic abilities while keeping it wholly secondary.

Those are nice, but I don't know that they necessarily pull the monk up to tier 3 or 4.

Those are a few of the minor things I've considered.  One is upping the AC bonus every 3 levels so it becomes +6 at 19th level, not a big boost but a point or to of AC a level or so lower can make a difference.  I also thought of changing the unarmed damage chart to raise it every three levels, becoming 3d10 at level 19, also I think it's fair to increase the damage dice after 20th level.  Another change I planned was giving bonuses to jump, climb, tumble, and balance to let them make the epic DCs super early to pull off the insane acrobatics.  I also though of making slow fall instead ignore two d6 worth of damage per class level, effectively making them immune to falling damage at level 10 so they can afford to jump 70ft in the air to attack and not be worried about the landing.

Add in an ability that lets them base their attack bonus off of WIS rather than STR or DEX. That way WIS is the main stat, and STR and DEX are secondary. Less MAD is more bueno.

I've seen that in many monk fixes, and I think it certainly belongs in the class.  I though about putting it in at level 3 or so, so they actually have to be fairly above average (compared to commoners and the like) before they can do that.

Also, all limited use abilities need to be usable AT LEAST wisdom modifier number of times per day. I'm looking at the Dimension Door ripoff and Five-Point Heart-Explodey Technique particularly. None of that 1/week junk.

Another fairly common change that is completely fair and needed.  Some of the more 'tame' abilities I thought of making 1/class level/day but again, anything 3/day should be super awesome and need a hard limit, and anything 1/week should say 'i win' or 'i hold your life in my hands unless you work with me' that kinds of thing.



I thought about giving them a ki blast sort of thing that they could use as part of a flurry in place of one of their attacks or as a stand alone attack action.
Another thought that just popped into my head is what would you think of a constantly active ability that gave them a 5% miss chance per 10ft of base land speed, maybe capping at 50% or something?  Kind of the classic martial arts thing where they're moving so fast there seems to be 8 of them?

[RobbyPants]

Those are nice, but I don't know that they necessarily pull the monk up to tier 3 or 4.

Those are a few of the minor things I've considered.  One is upping the AC bonus every 3 levels so it becomes +6 at 19th level, not a big boost but a point or to of AC a level or so lower can make a difference.  I also thought of changing the unarmed damage chart to raise it every three levels, becoming 3d10 at level 19, also I think it's fair to increase the damage dice after 20th level.  Another change I planned was giving bonuses to jump, climb, tumble, and balance to let them make the epic DCs super early to pull off the insane acrobatics.  I also though of making slow fall instead ignore two d6 worth of damage per class level, effectively making them immune to falling damage at level 10 so they can afford to jump 70ft in the air to attack and not be worried about the landing.

I think those types of changes can get you up until about level 7 to 10. After that point, you'll want some more fantastic things. The class actually has a lot of them built in, but it doesn't make much use of them. As mentioned earlier in the thread, more liberal use of Dimension Door and Quivering Palm would help.

[Bauglir]

Some sort of advanced shadowpouncing-type abilities synergizing with Flurry of Blows couldn't hurt. You don't exactly have to make it teleportation; it could be fluffed as the monk putting on such a burst of speed that they can more or less attack from multiple directions at once. For instance, the following couple of abilities (designed to synergize) could be interspersed throughout the class

Step of the Mind's Eye (Ex): As a swift action, you can move up to your speed. You can do this a number of times per day equal to your class level plus your Wisdom modifier.
Fist of the Flashing Sun (Ex): Any time you enter a square from which you threaten an opponent, you may make an attack against that opponent. You need not spend an additional action to do so, but these attacks are considered part of a full attack action using your Flurry of Blows for purposes other than the actions required, and you cannot make more such attacks in a round than you would be entitled to if making such a full attack. Thus, a 9th level monk's first and second attack made with Fist of the Flashing Sun would use a base attack bonus of +6, while her third would have a base attack bonus of +1. You cannot use a full attack action during a round in which you use Fist of the Flashing Sun, but you can use a standard action to make an additional attack.
Blinding Speed (Ex): If you make a second attack against a single creature in one round from a different square than your first, the target creature is considered flanked by you for that attack. You are considered a Rogue of your class level for the purposes of determining the effects of the target's Improved Uncanny Dodge ability, if any. If you make a third such attack, the target is flat-footed against you for the purposes of that and further attacks in that round.

Throw in some of the standard nifty movement modes people tend to give monks, and you could be in an interesting place.

[SneeR]

At first, I thought Fist of the Flashing Sun was needlessly complicated, but the way it works with Blinding Speed made me chuckle at its ingenuity.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Monk ?

[bruceleeroy]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=64436

Snakeman's monk fix. I have a player using it in a game I'm running. It works well. Roughly Tier 3, although the other characters are a bit wacky, so it's a bit difficult to compare.