Author Topic: Need advice for a low-op party  (Read 5986 times)

Offline cvar

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Need advice for a low-op party
« on: February 29, 2012, 10:29:28 PM »
Only from lack of knowledge mind you, the DM specifically said "go wild" when I asked.

So far we have a Human Fighter who wants to do mounted combat, an Elf Archer Ranger, a Halfling Rogue who wants to focus on sneak attack, and me going the way of the Bearbarian(Dwarf).  We're currently level 2, but I can probably convince the DM to let us swap around some choices at first/second level.  The game will probably run until about 8th or 10th level and I'd be shocked if it went past 9th at all.

Most of the players aren't too comfortable with 3.5 builds so I'd like to keep it to one or two classes.  Multiclass xp penalties are in play as well.  The DM will probably draw the line at some point, but he's reasonable and will let us do some crazy stuff if it's not too out of hand.  I don't know what that point is yet though, haven't really had a chance to stretch out some op-fu here.

For our fighter, I'm going to suggest he picks up Wild Cohort to get a non useless mount and the obvious mounted combat feats, but what else?  Should I try to get him Dungeoncrasher for silly charges and bouncing?  He's pretty sold on the fighter class, but he may be open to multiclassing if it gets him more dice to roll.  Is pretty likely to forget anything more complex than CHARGE!, so simple is good.

Our rogue is brand new to the game (and even the genre at all it seems, coming straight from WoW).  He wants to roll lots of dice and kill things dead, so I was going to suggest he go the Daring Outlaw build (Rogue4/Swashbuckler 16) with a big focus on pumping out SA damage.  I'll be using the handbook extensively for that, but is there anything you guys would suggest he MUST get?  Brand new guy, but he has a good head for numbers and seems to be picking up on the game quick.

Our ranger is a nice guy, but doesn't really pay attention to class abilities and gets stuck on the rules a lot.  He likes rolling lots of dice too.  There doesn't seem to be a lot of optimization for the ranger beyond SHOOT MOAR, so I'm not sure what to do here.  Anything complex will probably not get used, so passive abilities that let him roll more dice is probably the best call.

For me, I'm using Solo's guide, though I am curious if taking two levels of Psychic Warrior to get bonus feats and psionic powers is a better choice than just taking two levels of fighter.  Currently Barb2/Fighter2/FoF3/Bear Warrior 1 is my plan with warshaper 4 and more bear levels to fill in the rest should we somehow get that far.  I took lion totem for pounce, wolf totem for imp trip and ferocity(cityscape) though I need to talk to the DM to see if that lets me go bear.  If it doesn't I'll ask(beg if need be) to switch it back to rage so I can exercise my right to bear arms.  I was planning on picking up Knock-down and just beating my opponents into the ground.  Is there anything you guys would recommend that I grab?

Thanks for reading!

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2012, 11:11:14 PM »
Fighter gets a Wild Cohort and rides it.

Ranger gets his AC and rides that, while taking the mounted archery feats.  Dip a couple levels of Fighter after level 6 if necessary to get everything.

Rogue might want to learn to fly.  There's a graft for that.  Having a mount might clash with the whole sneaky/stabby business.

As for your bear, you'll be able to keep up with the horses yourself with FotF levels, so I think you're good to go.

Note that this party is pretty pathetically non-magical, so you definitely want your DM to pay attention to just about anything with an SLA or a fly speed.  You might want to guide your campaign towards something of a LotR kinda game later on, where you guys are running around on horses and shit killing a half-dozen orcs a second with pointy objects.  Except in this one, Gimli is a fucking BEAR.  Also, you'll want to equip the rogue with wands that have some nice utility spells so he can make use of some low-level magic with his UMD.  Stuff like Faerie Fire, Obscuring Mist, Web, Cure Light Wounds, and so on.  The Ranger can actually cast a few nice spells, eventually, although there's an option in CC that lets him dump that for more feats that you might want to do, instead.

Offline cvar

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2012, 11:44:58 PM »
Fighter gets a Wild Cohort and rides it.

Ranger gets his AC and rides that, while taking the mounted archery feats.  Dip a couple levels of Fighter after level 6 if necessary to get everything.

Rogue might want to learn to fly.  There's a graft for that.  Having a mount might clash with the whole sneaky/stabby business.

As for your bear, you'll be able to keep up with the horses yourself with FotF levels, so I think you're good to go.

Note that this party is pretty pathetically non-magical, so you definitely want your DM to pay attention to just about anything with an SLA or a fly speed.  You might want to guide your campaign towards something of a LotR kinda game later on, where you guys are running around on horses and shit killing a half-dozen orcs a second with pointy objects.  Except in this one, Gimli is a fucking BEAR.  Also, you'll want to equip the rogue with wands that have some nice utility spells so he can make use of some low-level magic with his UMD.  Stuff like Faerie Fire, Obscuring Mist, Web, Cure Light Wounds, and so on.  The Ranger can actually cast a few nice spells, eventually, although there's an option in CC that lets him dump that for more feats that you might want to do, instead.

Fun Fact, it's in middle earth.   :D

I'll suggest the mounted archery line to our ranger, I know I mentioned riding his AC to him when we were making characters, but I'll remind him.  Should he go for that right away or is grabbing precise shot more important?  I know I talked about UMD with our rogue, but I'll strongarm the group into pooling money into the "magic could totally solve this" fund so that he has easy access to the good stuff.  The halfling will probably wind up being used as the stabbiest lance in the world eventually, so I don't think he'll have a hard time keeping up and the DM may frown on flying in the setting.

Anything specific for the Fighter/Ranger?  The rogue handbook gave me lots of help for our new guy, but I don't want to leave them out in the cold without anything neat to play with.  I'll take a look at the CC option and show it to him to see what he thinks, it might be for the best to have him dump his spells for a class feature he'd actually use though.

I've already talked to the DM when we started about how the extremely low magic middle earth setting would make it near impossible for us to actually be effective (he agreed), but he doesn't want it to be "magical shit for everyone!".  I'm pretty sure there's an enchantment that adds precise for our ranger so he can skip it and I can dig through the archery handbook for bow shit for him, but we may have serious issues getting items.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2012, 12:30:41 AM »
For the most part, sure, but almost all the title characters in middle earth did have magic swords, so I think a +1 Precise Bow is the least your ranger buddy should get.

As for how important precise shot is... that depends on the situation.  If you're going to be in the open, on horseback, and the melees are using Ride-By-Attack all the time, then it's not going to come into play very often at all.  Otherwise, you might want to get that first.  The CC option to pick it up might make everything fall into place by level 6, anyway.

Offline cvar

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2012, 12:46:46 AM »
Well, me and the rogue probably won't be using Ride-by-attack, but the fighter will.  My intention though will be to use Knockdown and drag opponents down (it's bearlike!) which sets me up well with the rogue but screws the ranger.  That won't come online until 6ish though because FoF feat prereqs, but until then I'm crowding into melee as soon as I can.  I guess I could 5ft after each attack to give him a clear shot until he picks up precise.


Also, is grabbing psychic warrior for the 2 powers worth the effort?  Expansion seemed nifty, but it will only last for 2 rounds/once a day, not sure if it's worth it.

Offline Coidzor

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2012, 05:48:53 AM »
Is Unearthed Arcana on the table?  If so, you might see if the Fighter is down for the Sneak Attack Fighter variant, which will also encourage him to help the Rogue (which seems to be melee) set up flanking opportunities, as well as allow him to indulge in rolling lots of dice.

With the multiclass XP penalties in play, swift hunter is, unfortunately, less attractive for the Ranger, unless he'll go equal levels on ranger and scout.  Though that'd rule out a mount, flying or no, and axe the utility of the already gimped animal companion, relegating it to more of a watchdog/extra pair of eyes and ears/scout role.  If you're going to have him shooting into Melee a lot, then, yes, you'll want him to have Precise Shot.  My understanding is that Mounted Archery is only going to come up as useful occasionally, as you can full attack while doing a single move without even taking the feat and have no penalties for doing so, and most things worth riding are going to have move speeds that are adequate for your purposes there.  Especially if the rest of the characters are not built to be conducive to long-range hit-and-run kiting.

Offline ClayQ

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2012, 09:40:24 AM »
The ranger acf from phb2 goes well with the rogue if he doesnt want a mount, sub optimal but viable.

As for precise shot... Must have for archers... Single best archery enchantment requires it... Splitting anyone?

If he goes mounted combat you might also consider swift hunter with scout levels as mounted he can move and full round unless my systems are confused.

What race is the ranger? Scout 4/ranger 16 isnt bad. However, needs human or half elf to avoid multiclass exp.


Psy warriors second feat is 3rd not second I believe.

Ft def needs to multiclass, no more than 4 ft levels!! In regardsto charging, warblade for manuvers if you think he can figure them out, alternatively find a way to get pounce, spirited charge and valorous weapons please.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 09:53:15 AM by ClayQ »
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Offline ClayQ

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2012, 10:02:14 AM »
Alternative for the ranger.....

Take the acf for flanking, do a swift hunter 50/50 scout/ranger, and get a mount through wild cohort or similar.

More feats invested, but fixes the xp issue and mount issue plus gives flanking chanced with the rogue.
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Offline Tethlis

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2012, 11:02:40 AM »
This may be slightly cheesy but I like this rogue build:

14 Feat Rogue / 3 Swashbuckler / 3 Sneak Attack Fighter using Daring outlaw to to advance sneak attack damage. Pick up Craven, Martial Study / Martial Stance (any shadowblade technique) / Shadow Blade. Sneak attacks will do SA damage + character level + int mod + dex mod. Combine with Staggering Strike (CA) and Maiming Strike (EoE) to add some debuffs.

As for the ranger I would suggest atleast 3 levels of peerless archer for power attack with bows. Also, attempt to get a splitting bow asap.

Is your barbarian a dwarf? If so 2 levels of Stone Warden is amazing with Fist of the Forest.


Offline cvar

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2012, 11:35:35 AM »
Is Unearthed Arcana on the table?  If so, you might see if the Fighter is down for the Sneak Attack Fighter variant, which will also encourage him to help the Rogue (which seems to be melee) set up flanking opportunities, as well as allow him to indulge in rolling lots of dice.

With the multiclass XP penalties in play, swift hunter is, unfortunately, less attractive for the Ranger, unless he'll go equal levels on ranger and scout.  Though that'd rule out a mount, flying or no, and axe the utility of the already gimped animal companion, relegating it to more of a watchdog/extra pair of eyes and ears/scout role.  If you're going to have him shooting into Melee a lot, then, yes, you'll want him to have Precise Shot.  My understanding is that Mounted Archery is only going to come up as useful occasionally, as you can full attack while doing a single move without even taking the feat and have no penalties for doing so, and most things worth riding are going to have move speeds that are adequate for your purposes there.  Especially if the rest of the characters are not built to be conducive to long-range hit-and-run kiting.

UA isn't specifically on the table, but he may allow stuff from it.  I just need to sell the idea.  The mounted combat sections doesn't say if there are any penalties for a single move, it only lists double moves or greater as having penalties so I'd be inclined to agree with you.  It seems the rest of us are going for the pound em in melee approach, so no, long range hit and run won't work with this group.  Although if we TPK.....

The fighter is really going for the CHARGE build, so I don't think he wants to sit around in melee with us.  He's too cool for school and all that.

The ranger acf from phb2 goes well with the rogue if he doesnt want a mount, sub optimal but viable.

As for precise shot... Must have for archers... Single best archery enchantment requires it... Splitting anyone?

If he goes mounted combat you might also consider swift hunter with scout levels as mounted he can move and full round unless my systems are confused.

What race is the ranger? Scout 4/ranger 16 isnt bad. However, needs human or half elf to avoid multiclass exp.


Psy warriors second feat is 3rd not second I believe.

Ft def needs to multiclass, no more than 4 ft levels!! In regardsto charging, warblade for manuvers if you think he can figure them out, alternatively find a way to get pounce, spirited charge and valorous weapons please.

That's a neat ACF, I'll suggest that to him to see if he likes it.  I know splitting requires it, but possible VERY low magic campaign.  But since mounted archery doesn't seem like it will be a required feat, he can probably just pick up precise right away.  That and the CC ACF that lets him trade spells in to get bonus feats will probably let him get a solid ranger build down very quickly.  I'll also toss the Swift Hunter idea to him and see what he likes.

Psy Warriors second feat is at second level, according to the SRD.  I like the idea of being able to yell GIANT BEAR CHARGE ATTACK, but I won't be able to do it often enough to make me immediately decide to take the levels.  : <

-Related question:  Does the bite attack from FoF's Feral Trance stack with the bite attack gained from becoming a bear?  So my full attack would be Fist/Fist/Claw/Claw/Bite/Bite?

I know fighter will need to mc to remain effective, I just don't know into what.  I'll run the warblade past him, sadly with xp penalties in, I don't think he'll be able to dip barb 1 to get pounce.  We'll have to find another way.  Not sure, but he might have already taken the feat Spirited Charge, will need to check in with them.  Making a list of these magic item enhancements too, so I appreciate that!


Thanks for all the advice guys, we'll probably game sometime this weekend, so I'd love to hear anything else you can come up with.


RED BOX EDIT
This may be slightly cheesy but I like this rogue build:

14 Feat Rogue / 3 Swashbuckler / 3 Sneak Attack Fighter using Daring outlaw to to advance sneak attack damage. Pick up Craven, Martial Study / Martial Stance (any shadowblade technique) / Shadow Blade. Sneak attacks will do SA damage + character level + int mod + dex mod. Combine with Staggering Strike (CA) and Maiming Strike (EoE) to add some debuffs.

As for the ranger I would suggest atleast 3 levels of peerless archer for power attack with bows. Also, attempt to get a splitting bow asap.

Is your barbarian a dwarf? If so 2 levels of Stone Warden is amazing with Fist of the Forest.



We're really, really unlikely to hit 20 ever.  I'll run the feat rogue by him and the DM though since that will let him get moar dice it looks like.  I had only read the Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 build in the rogue handbook.

Where is peerless archer from?

I want stone wardenDeep warden(?RoS, Con to AC?), but no idea how to fit it into the build with the feat prereqs and cc skill reqs for me.  Mainly the feat.  I just don't have room to pick up Endurance.  I could try the cheesy retrain bonus armor prof feats from class levels to useful feats, but I don't think that's legal even by raw (It says "feat you selected" and those are bonus feats from your class.  I could probably try to argue it, but he actually did the debate team.  I could also try to get him to allow flaws from UA which is more likely to fly.)  Supposedly, there's a ranger variant somewhere that gives power attack or IUS freeing up 2 feats for me (Barb 2/Ranger 3/FoF3/DW 2/BW 1/WS 4/BW4 is the build I think), but I think it's dragon mag and I have no access to those to even try to show the DM.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Offline Tethlis

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2012, 12:22:40 PM »
Peerless Archer is from Forgotten Realms Silver Marches page 115.

I do now know of the ACF to get power attack or Unarmed Strike from ranger. I would try and get a flaw allowed. It might help you get a flaw if you state that it is for a subpar feat (endurance).

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2012, 03:45:18 PM »
If he goes mounted combat you might also consider swift hunter with scout levels as mounted he can move and full round unless my systems are confused.

Skirmish specifically says it doesn't work while mounted.
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Offline Kremti

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2012, 05:22:56 PM »
If he goes mounted combat you might also consider swift hunter with scout levels as mounted he can move and full round unless my systems are confused.

Skirmish specifically says it doesn't work while mounted.
Specifically, I believe it was *errata'd* this way, in case OP is not aware.

-K

Offline cvar

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2012, 05:39:41 PM »
If he goes mounted combat you might also consider swift hunter with scout levels as mounted he can move and full round unless my systems are confused.

Skirmish specifically says it doesn't work while mounted.
Specifically, I believe it was *errata'd* this way, in case OP is not aware.

-K

It has to have been errata, the book says nothing about mounted.  I'll leave it up to the DM.  We don't really go out of our way to find the errata, he just rule 0's things that are out of hand or seem excessively weak.

Offline ClayQ

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2012, 07:02:28 PM »
They are correct I just pulled the errata, It is in the errata thus my missing it (felt it necessary to check as I'm currently playing two different swift hunter builds. although neither is mounted nor did either plan to be.)
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Offline X-Codes

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2012, 09:30:22 PM »
Feel free to ignore that errata.  It's pure MCHNT, and not really about balance at all.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2012, 09:41:36 PM »
I've always found the Scout's errata irritating, at least on the mounted side of things.  If it's about "balance" they fucked up big time because rogues can get double the d6's and full attack fairly often.  Scouts rarely get to full attack because of having to move at least 10 feet, unless of course they dip Barbarian or something for pounce.

It also makes the concept of mounted guerrilla warfare much, much harder to do within D&D.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Need advice for a low-op party
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2012, 09:59:22 PM »
Quote
Scouts rarely get to full attack because of having to move at least 10 feet, unless of course they dip Barbarian or something for pounce.
Or go Manyshot ==> Greater Manyshot.
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