Author Topic: Fixing Cone Areas  (Read 13303 times)

Offline Kethrian

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Fixing Cone Areas
« on: February 25, 2012, 09:31:56 PM »
I had originally posted this on the old BG forums, but I figure it's time to relocate it here.

I’ve been annoyed with the template illustrations for cones in the 3.5 books ever since I first laid eyes upon them.  Diagonal cones always had a smaller area than orthogonal ones.  The notable first big offender is the DMG template page, where the cone templates for Burning Hands are horrifyingly small.  Thankfully, someone at WotC actually took the time to fix the orthogonal cones when they printed the Draconomicon.  Unfortunately, they did not bother to adjust the diagonal cones to try and cover the same amount of area.  And so I went and recalculated them in such a way as to make both as equal as possible.

(click to show/hide)

The math behind the orthogonal cone actually treats those first 2 squares adjacent to the attacker (C) as if they were diagonal movement.  Everything continues from there, with that logic bringing out the end result you see above.

                  Squares Covered
Cone Size    Orthogonal       Diagonal
    15’           8               6
    20’          14              11
    30’          28              24
    40’          48              43
    50’          74              67
    60’         104              96
    70’         140             131
    80’         182             171


But the same logic is also applied to the diagonal template, which only has a single square adjacent to the attacker (C).  This throws off the calculations, resulting in smaller cone areas in all sizes.  To fix this, one must simply measure the initial square as if it were the result of an orthogonal movement, and everything suddenly changes!

(click to show/hide)

With this new template, the diagonal cones cover the same size area almost exactly.

                  Squares Covered
Cone Size    Orthogonal       Diagonal
    15’           8               8
    20’          14              13
    30’          28              28
    40’          48              48
    50’          74              73
    60’         104             104
    70’         140             140
    80’         182             181


As you can see, only the 20’, 50’, and 80’ templates do not exactly match, and even then, are a mere one square short.  And as an added bonus, the diagonal cones actually look rounded!
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Offline Jopustopin

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Re: Fixing Cone Areas
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2012, 08:13:49 AM »
I've actually encountered a similar frustration.  Here is the problem as I posted it yesterday in the playground:


Q200

Anyone notice the 15-foot cone in DMG is different than Draconomicon?  I think that the draconomicon one is RIGHT RAW (and the RAW I'm talking about comes from the PHB).

Sources:
PHB (pg. 175)
DMG (pg. 307)
Draconomicon (pg. 63)


Can someone tell me which 15 foot cone is the correct one?

Here is my current conundrum:
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Fixing Cone Areas
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2012, 08:47:46 AM »
I would say that the Draconomicon, being the last, and therefore, most up-to-date, is the most correct and accurate.  The DMG is clearly out to lunch with its diagram, as that one is measured from the centre of a side, not a corner.

Now with that said, I would still suggest further updating to my version of how a diagonal cone should be, as it would hit the same "size" of area, with it also hitting 8 squares for a 15' cone.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Fixing Cone Areas
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2012, 04:34:31 PM »
There is no "right" solution.
The square count mechanic colides with RL math rather quickly.

WotC abandoned this stuff in 4e and went with boxes.
And there was be-yotching about that.


If something went
1 square out 1 square covered
2 squares out 2 squares covered
3 squares out 3 squares covered
and one side of the cone had to be straight
... that would work OK enough with ~1/8th of a circle.
(but that's not what you're doing)
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Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Fixing Cone Areas
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2012, 05:02:56 PM »
I like the fix, but I'm not sure how to count it. My head is too ingrained with "1, 2-3, 4, 5-6, 7, 8-9, etc". That was the initial easy way to count a cone, just walk it. Putting an extra half a square of movement makes wonderful logical sense, especially with your coverage math, but it's not intuitive.

That said, I'll bring it to my table tonight and see what they say. I think we'll stick with the book for this campaign, but next one (when the rules of the book go out the window) it's open season.
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Fixing Cone Areas
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2012, 06:39:09 PM »
@awaken_D_M_golem: Oh, I agree that if all cones were 1/8th of a circle, they would all fill the same area due to having one straight and one diagonal side.  But take note that if you split the Draconomicon's cones into 2 1/8th cones, the ones from the diagonal cone would both count the squares along the diagonal line.  It's precisely that overlap that causes the discrepancy between the diagonal and orthogonal 1/4 cones.

@RedWarlock: It does take some getting used to, I had to really focus to get the counting just right for my "fixed" template.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Fixing Cone Areas
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2012, 07:07:29 PM »

 :lol :fu ... so I was that close to self-enlightenment
... and there it goes ... (sigh)
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Fixing Cone Areas
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2012, 08:09:00 PM »

 :lol :fu ... so I was that close to self-enlightenment
... and there it goes ... (sigh)

 :lmao I suppose you could always try a diet...
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Offline Tarkisflux

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Re: Fixing Cone Areas
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2012, 01:12:37 AM »
... Stealing these. Thanks for the pics!  :love

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Fixing Cone Areas
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2012, 01:18:55 AM »
... Stealing these. Thanks for the pics!  :love

You're very welcome!  That's what they're there for!  :D
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