Author Topic: [3.5] Vampires - Maybe Somebody Will Actually Play One Now  (Read 11992 times)

Offline Rejakor

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Re: [3.5] Vampires - Maybe Somebody Will Actually Play One Now
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2012, 03:01:19 PM »
Being a druid implies other things like protecting nature and having an animal companion and other spells and stuff.  Shouldn't ask people to limit specifically what they cast or do in order to fulfill an archetype.  Yes vampires can do quasimagical shit like make cold mist rise (kelgore's grave mist, creeping cold) etc but the temptation to cast glitterdust is too much if it's the best spell you can cast and then you get sparkly vampires and it's your fault for not giving them their racials.  Plus vampires needing material components to do vampirey things is painful and annoying.

By vampire lord I meant write one that gives upgrades to the abilities you give as part of the four level class.


People want to play a vampire that does vampire things.  That is why they are playing a vampire.  Yeah they might want to play a vampire shadowdancer or a vampire necromancer or something too, but mostly they just want to be able to do vampire things.  You don't need the over the top bullshit in the MM, but neither is the lite version here much good either, it goes too far and there's NO vampire things.  Now I need to be a vampire druid sorcerer if I want to do thematic vampire things and then I can do things vampires can't.

Offline Bauglir

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Re: [3.5] Vampires - Maybe Somebody Will Actually Play One Now
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2012, 03:04:02 AM »
Okay, racial vampire feats added to let you do vampire stuff. You've got your charm gaze, your children of the night, your form of mist, and your "holy fuck why won't you die". What did I miss? I still maintain that a number of pop culture vampires have their class level abilities conflated with their vampiricism, but I've tried to give out as feats some things that classes don't offer in an effective way or which are otherwise not really going to work.

The balance of Form of Mist is also questionable, what with the spell rewrite I did for it, so some feedback on that would be good.

Offline veekie

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Re: [3.5] Vampires - Maybe Somebody Will Actually Play One Now
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2012, 04:20:01 AM »
The charm gaze probably needs some factor against charmspam. A save should protect you from further attempts, whether or not you made it for one, and especially if you DID save. Maybe throw in a HD cap on the target(your own -4?) or a HD prereq.
Its extremely powerful at will of course, though IIRC, from the mythos wearing a holy symbol aids in resisting, which can be a mitigating factor.

Children of the Night...well it IS at will summoning, but only animals, with a delay, and not very usable when you want to spam packs of them(e.g. for detrapping, since trapped dungeons tend not to have a lot of suitable animals). Might want to limit the commands to the same type available from Summon Nature's Ally(Attack a target, stop, etc), and specify available creature types(generally animals with association with the vampire imagery).
Possible extensions might have you take direct control of a suitable animal and use its senses. Maybe another feat for that.

Gaseous Form comes in a little late, but understandably so what with the whole dungeon bypass issue. I presume vampire barriers still apply? Holy ground, homes(sans invitation), running water, etc. What about natural strong winds, and how do these damages interact with the regeneration?
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Offline Rejakor

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Re: [3.5] Vampires - Maybe Somebody Will Actually Play One Now
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2012, 06:47:47 AM »
Gaseous form doesn't stop damage iirc.  What stops damage is vampires can't take damage when they are at one hitpoint until they reach their coffin.  Even then it's unclear and lots of DMs rule that you need to actually stake and bake'em.  This would be much better represented with actual regeneration... if they weren't undead and therefore immune to subdual damage.

The problem with all of this is that there is very little downside with those feats to the whole party just being vampires.

Instead of 'I am weak but have these cool abilities, so I can for example dungeon bypass but it leaves the group behind and when I get to the BBEG I can't kill him/steal the macguffin', like 4 level racial class would give, you have 1 HD for free gaseous form at 10th.  Escape Artist as a class skill is trickier, and gets into the 'not worth it' territory, sure, but eh.  The whole thing just feels weird.  If you want vampires to get their abilities from a class, make a vampire racial class.  No other class gives the iconic vampire abilities without other stuff like wildshaping into bears and glitterdust.

Offline Bauglir

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Re: [3.5] Vampires - Maybe Somebody Will Actually Play One Now
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2012, 01:52:17 PM »
Oh, crud. I was explicitly thinking about avoiding charmspam when I wrote that last line about being immune for an hour, and then I botched it. That's what I get for writing this stuff after I get back from work. I'll fix that, and add some defenses.

For Children of the Night, I will probably add the command limitations you mention, but I won't add a list of creatures. I want the effect to scale with level, so doing so would require me to provide a list of thematically appropriate animals at every level. If somebody else wants to do it, then okay, but that's more effort than I want to put forth.

For Mist Form, yeah, I'll add some stuff to Gaseous Form about natural winds, and explicitly call out that vampire vulnerabilities still apply to a vampire in mist form.

@Rejakor
Yeah, it doesn't. That's what Vampiric Vigor is for. And none of this "Vampires can't take damage until they reach their coffin nonsense". I've never actually seen that come up in media, it's just that the creators wanted a way to have players fight the vampire and still force them to do the dramatic stake-them-in-the-coffin scene, which is typically done in media when the heroes sneak up on the villain, not after a climactic battle in which the heroes were undeniably the victors. We'll be having none of that, but vampires with supernatural regeneration are fine. Since they're explicitly vulnerable to nonlethal damage, this is acceptable.

The downside to these feats is that you need a racial hit die to begin with (one which you, at least, have claimed didn't seem worthwhile) and you also need to spend a feat on each one. Getting all of them takes 4 feats, which is more than half of a character's feats over 20 levels (discounting bonus feats). Flaws do break them a little, but that's because flaws are kind of absurd. Maybe I could put a limit on use more substantial than at-will, but even so. And I should probably add to Form of Mist that your gaseous form is personal only - sorry about that, it was an oversight. If you have a better suggestion than the Escape Artist ranks, feel free; they were a kludge to get it available at level 10 only, and not a very good one.

Thing is, though, they're not getting these abilities from their class, they're getting them from feats, which seem an ideal way to add modular abilities onto a character. I'm not writing a 4 level racial class, under any circumstances, because that undermines the entire point of writing a vampire template that's as compatible with multiple builds as a human. A prestige class of some sort for vampires who want their race to be a defining part of the character, maybe, but as a core part of the template, it's just counterproductive. And, honestly, I'm getting tired of writing more vampire material. So the prestige class isn't very likely unless somebody sells me on a really good theme.