If you took away domain spells from a Cleric...

[Amechra]

And by that, I mean to propose the following question:

What tier would a cleric be if their base spell list had every spell that was on one of their domains, and all of their "improved versions" (So removing Lesser Planar Ally would remove both Planar Ally and Greater Planar Ally), and every Cure/Inflict spell...

If they could still spontaneously cast Cure/Inflict spells, and if they added their Domain spells to their spell list in the following progression:

4th: 1st level spells.
6th: 2nd level spells.
8th: 3rd level spells.
10th: 4th level spells.
12th: 5th level spells.
14th: 6th level spells.
16th: 7th level spells.
18th: 8th level spells.
20th: 9th level spells.

And in a related question,

What if you removed a Wizard's ability to learn spells off of scrolls, and instead gave them the ability to prepare a spell off of a scroll in one of their spell slots once, destroying the scroll; thus, they could metamagic up a scroll, or use any of their special, spell improving feats with it?

So, for example, Wally the 10th level Wizard finds a CL 5 Scroll of Fireball; he could choose to cast the scroll, or he could prepare that Fireball in a 3rd level slot and take advantage of his own CL.

To compensate for the MASSIVE decrease in versatility (I'm thinking you would have to either remove Collegiate Wizard from the game, or make it a class feature, which would replace your Familiar, and only work on your actual Wizard class levels.), I would say that they could prepare scrolls from the class lists of other BASE classes at +1 level, so they could prepare a scroll of Cure Light Wounds as a 2nd level spell.

Archivists would get the same change (no Collegiate Wizard option, I'm afraid).

Finally, one for Druids (kinda un-thought through, but it might work...)

A Druid in Wildshape inherits an animal's simplicity of mind: they have to use the mental ability scores of the animal in question. They still retain their class features, but may lose spells (or the ability to cast certain spells) by entering Wildshape.

Also, they may not select an animal companion that has a CR greater than 1/2 their ECL.

Sp, in finality, if these changes were made, what differences to tier would they make? The Druid one kinda amuses me, since a Druid might still be able to cast their spells, but will have a real problem using them intelligently, given that they are stupider than the party Barbarian at that point in time... 

[veekie]

@Cleric
Highly variable, since domains spells are all over, but losing the bulk of their base spell list would drop them to T3 or so, unless the domains were expanded. Most domains are full of situational spells that could be completely terrible to prepare. Maybe if you made them full list spontaneous on top?

@Wizard
No real decrease in power sufficient to drop a tier. For the most part they can get all the spells they NEED off their 2 spells known per level, they just wouldn't be able to get every spell they WANT.

@Druid
Tough to enforce, but they do lose most of their higher level spells with most animals(they're decent wis, not druid quality wis). For the companion, some of the extant lower level powerhouses still work at high. Not much of a change in power either.

[Amechra]

Thanks for the info.

[littha]

I would avoid the druid one, at higher levels they might actually gain higher WIS from wildshaping into something particularly nasty.

[lieronet]

Wizards can still copy spells directly from a spellbook, all that change would do is make things kind of annoying

[Amechra]

What if you got rid of that too... because I forgot about that?

[Schizek]

@Cleric will stay on tier 1, even if you remove these spell he still have almost best spells selection and can change his spells every day based on situation.

You can even mimic some spells anyway like:
-Planar Ally, Use Plane Shift then do some diplomacy, more troublesome but still you can do this
-Teleport from Travel domain, Plane Shift on any plane then use Greater Planar Shift to teleport into any place in material plane
-Heal is already better than any cure spell plus you still have spells like Vigor that can be made persistent

@Wizard stays on Tier 1, He can still learn from another wizard and there are still feats like Collegiate Wizard that would deal with that and if not avaible then evil Wizard can find another lower leveled Wizard cast Dominate and make him give you his spellbook gradually he will rise his amount of spells known. Good Wizard will just go to his friends and ask to share knowledge.

@Druid stays on Tier 1, Main reason why he is there are his spells even if you resign from Wildshape and Companion he still have many powerful spells.

Bite of X can make druid powerful in melee anyway
Summon Nature ally will make up for companion at lest in combat.

It would be hard to make these classes to drop tier lower without being forced to remake all their spells available for them. You can easily raise any classes up to tier 3 but not other way.

[Amechra]

I'm pretty sure half the spells you mentioned on the Cleric list are also on Domain lists... Heal is actually on the Healing domain, and I'm pretty sure Vigor is on another one.

[Schizek]

Healing Domain domain have all cure spells you want remove option for cleric to cure?
I was thinking that removing domain spells was about deleting spells that are originally from wizard list.

Anyway i think that you will find replacement for cure anyway like brew potion using xp pool from item familiar or 1 lvl Crusader dip or using some Divine Feats or having Healer as cohort or buying few Healing belts or ....  There is book named Spell Compendium and if you have patience you can find combination of spells that will more or less cover for any situation.

Spells are more powerfully than any possible mundane solution. Tier 1 classes have more or less unlimited access to spells that make them so powerful and versatile. If you radically cut their access to spells you will make them Tier 2 but then there would be no difference beside Sorcerer and Wizard beside casting stat with is going to be a little stupid.

[Amechra]

Nah, they would still have Cure X Wounds.

And really, removing Domain Spells (i.e., any spell that has appeared on a domain ever) from the base cleric spell list actually leaves the cleric with, in core at least, only about 3 9th level spells? And none of them were the good ones?

[Schizek]

Nah, they would still have Cure X Wounds.

And really, removing Domain Spells (i.e., any spell that has appeared on a domain ever) from the base cleric spell list actually leaves the cleric with, in core at least, only about 3 9th level spells? And none of them were the good ones?

They will have Miracle and Gate these spells are not weak also there is still plenty spells in other splatbooks. Even if not Cleric can still use almost free Persistent Spell to gain spell effects that are above 9lvl slot.  It is hard to say that after you delete all domain spells you will push them into lower tier maybe they could become Tier 2 but they will still know more spells than Favored Soul and have turn/rebuke that can be easily abused. Anyway there is not easy homebrew option to lower power of some classes.

[Amechra]

No, you wouldn't have Miracle OR Gate; Miracle and Gate are on several different Domains each, and thus would be removed.

Besides, Persistent Spell is actually quite overpriced, as are most Metamagic effects. They also lose many of the spells that are go-to for DMM Clerics (Divine Power, Righteous Might, and Divine Favor are out the window, iirc).

Sure, it doesn't power them down too far, but that wasn't my real intent, or else I would be posting this on the homebrew boards. I was only wondering how far you could mutilate their spell-list before the class becomes unusable.

I mean, look at the Wilder; great list of Powers, sucky number they can actually access. They are Tier 4 for pretty much that reason.

Though I did see an argument somewhere that the tiers should be renamed as follows:

1. Tier 3, 4, 5, and 6 are now Tiers 1, 2, 3, and 4.
2. The old Tier 1 and 2 are renamed something else.

Because, as the person making the comment pointed out, your trying to fit two VERY different progressions and measurements of power into the same rubric.

Because if you try to just measure flexibility or power with the Tier system, it collapses (in my experience, at least.)

[Schizek]

No, you wouldn't have Miracle OR Gate; Miracle and Gate are on several different Domains each, and thus would be removed.

Gate is not on any core domain. You have still spells like Apocalypse from Sky that is not in any SRD Domain and allow you to destroy whole country.

Besides, Persistent Spell is actually quite overpriced, as are most Metamagic effects. They also lose many of the spells that are go-to for DMM Clerics (Divine Power, Righteous Might, and Divine Favor are out the window, iirc).

You can still use Persistent Spell on Mass Lesser Vigor to grant whole team fast healing 1 for 24h using only 3 lvl slot. Metamagic is overpriced but reducing cost by DMM make them very strong again. Even with media-core optimization you will be able to Persist few spells and because you can change spells every day you can pick spells that team need most in any situation.

I mean, look at the Wilder; great list of Powers, sucky number they can actually access. They are Tier 4 for pretty much that reason.

Wilder have only 11 powers on 20lvl and cant change them easily, Cleric after cutting off his domain spells will have around 100-200 to pick from and can change assignment every day.

[Amechra]

If you go by the Domains on the SRD, then Gate is on a Domain.

Besides, PsyRef is your friend, my friend.

But, eh, it is my opinion that the cleric should be built more like the Spirit Shaman anyway.

[littha]

I always felt that cleric should be more along the lines of Ardent, only have domains to pick spells from and get bonus domains every few levels.

[Schizek]

Gate
Conjuration (Creation or Calling)Level:   Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9

Maybe we use different SRD.

But, eh, it is my opinion that the cleric should be built more like the Spirit Shaman anyway.

IF you build him the same way then there would be no difference beside primary stat.

I always felt that cleric should be more along the lines of Ardent, only have domains to pick spells from and get bonus domains every few levels.

Would would need to remake gods and give them more domains to make it work.

[sirpercival]

Gate is in the Glory domain, under Additional Domains in the Divine rules section.

[Amechra]

Umm...

Have you looked at the Spirit Shaman? They're spontaneous casters who can change which spells they have known each day.

A far cry from the Cleric.