Need some help and clarification reg the Legacy Champion.

[Volfogg]

Hi All,

I have an idea for a character and just wanted to ensure that I wasn't doing anything wrong. Specifically I wanted to verify how the Legacy Champion interacted with a dual progression prestige class. For example ...

warlock 2/sorcerer 3/eldritch theurge 10/legacy champion 5

Would this result in the character having an effective sorcerer casting level of 17 and an effective warlock casting level of 16?

Any help would be greatly appreciated! 

Cheers
Volf

[SorO_Lost]

Thread needs moved to Q&A.

Also mostly yes. You can choose for Legacy Champion to advance Eldritch Theurge and in turn those new ET gains advance Wizard & Warlock.

[Volfogg]

Thread needs moved to Q&A.

Also mostly yes. You can choose for Legacy Champion to advance Eldritch Theurge and in turn those new ET gains advance Wizard & Warlock.

Thanks for the response! Much appreciated.

Now before this thread gets moved I would like to ask a follow-up question that deals directly with optimization.

What feats as well as legacy item would be best for this character? I guess he would be a blaster type sorcerer. Would an utterdark build work for this type of set up?

Thanks!
Volf

[widow]

Legacy Champion works just fine for progressing a dual progress PrC.  There is some debate though on if you can advance a PrC beyond it's normal 10 levels pre-epic with class advancement abilities from the legacy Champion.  It seems that it should work by RAW, but your DM might have other ideas.   

It is quite fun to take blood lines and advance them with Legacy champion or Uncanny trickster for certain builds.

[Volfogg]

Legacy Champion works just fine for progressing a dual progress PrC.  There is some debate though on if you can advance a PrC beyond it's normal 10 levels pre-epic with class advancement abilities from the legacy Champion.  It seems that it should work by RAW, but your DM might have other ideas.   

It is quite fun to take blood lines and advance them with Legacy champion or Uncanny trickster for certain builds.

If it works by RAW than my DM should approve.

That's something that I don't understand ... why would you bother using Legacy Champion to advance bloodlines? In the write up of bloodlines (I am assuming you mean that ones that appear in UA) it specifically states, for spellcasters, that you only receive an increase in caster level not spells per day or slots. Is this correct or am I missing a part of the equation?

Cheers
Volf

[brujon]

Legacy Champion works just fine for progressing a dual progress PrC.  There is some debate though on if you can advance a PrC beyond it's normal 10 levels pre-epic with class advancement abilities from the legacy Champion.  It seems that it should work by RAW, but your DM might have other ideas.   

It is quite fun to take blood lines and advance them with Legacy champion or Uncanny trickster for certain builds.

If it works by RAW than my DM should approve.

That's something that I don't understand ... why would you bother using Legacy Champion to advance bloodlines? In the write up of bloodlines (I am assuming you mean that ones that appear in UA) it specifically states, for spellcasters, that you only receive an increase in caster level not spells per day or slots. Is this correct or am I missing a part of the equation?

Cheers
Volf

Correct, but they advance *all* caster levels, manifester levels, maneuver levels & binder levels... This is used in a cheesy manner to get triple 9's builds with fast progressing classes like Beholder Mage, Apostle of Peace, etc, together with a lot of dual progressing prestiges, ending up gaining triple or quadruple caster levels while still attaining 9th level spells/maneuvers/vestiges/powers... Cheesy and TO material, but it's there, so...

[Volfogg]

Legacy Champion works just fine for progressing a dual progress PrC.  There is some debate though on if you can advance a PrC beyond it's normal 10 levels pre-epic with class advancement abilities from the legacy Champion.  It seems that it should work by RAW, but your DM might have other ideas.   

It is quite fun to take blood lines and advance them with Legacy champion or Uncanny trickster for certain builds.

If it works by RAW than my DM should approve.

That's something that I don't understand ... why would you bother using Legacy Champion to advance bloodlines? In the write up of bloodlines (I am assuming you mean that ones that appear in UA) it specifically states, for spellcasters, that you only receive an increase in caster level not spells per day or slots. Is this correct or am I missing a part of the equation?

Cheers
Volf

Correct, but they advance *all* caster levels, manifester levels, maneuver levels & binder levels... This is used in a cheesy manner to get triple 9's builds with fast progressing classes like Beholder Mage, Apostle of Peace, etc, together with a lot of dual progressing prestiges, ending up gaining triple or quadruple caster levels while still attaining 9th level spells/maneuvers/vestiges/powers... Cheesy and TO material, but it's there, so...

Thanks for the clarification brujon! I wonder if you could get a triple "9" build which uses only one casting stat? Methinks I will fish around for such a thing ... I'd imagine someone has already come up with such a build.

Cheers
Volf

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Bloodlines have continued to be controversial ... (shrug)

Divine Mind and Lurk have otherwise no support.

Divine Mind 3 / Bloodline 3 / Legacy Champ 2 / Uncanny Trickster 2
= 14th level on some things, at level 10.  Difficult build on the "worst" class.

Lurk 4 / Bloodline 3 / Legacy Champ 2 / Uncanny Trickster 2
+ the Lurk Master (?) feat = 17th level on Lurk augs, at level 11.

And that's all those classes can do.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I'm trying ADMG

Legacy Champion works just fine for progressing a dual progress PrC.  There is some debate though on if you can advance a PrC beyond it's normal 10 levels pre-epic with class advancement abilities from the legacy Champion.  It seems that it should work by RAW, but your DM might have other ideas.   

It is quite fun to take blood lines and advance them with Legacy champion or Uncanny trickster for certain builds.

If it works by RAW than my DM should approve.

That's something that I don't understand ... why would you bother using Legacy Champion to advance bloodlines? In the write up of bloodlines (I am assuming you mean that ones that appear in UA) it specifically states, for spellcasters, that you only receive an increase in caster level not spells per day or slots. Is this correct or am I missing a part of the equation?

Cheers
Volf

Correct, but they advance *all* caster levels, manifester levels, maneuver levels & binder levels... This is used in a cheesy manner to get triple 9's builds with fast progressing classes like Beholder Mage, Apostle of Peace, etc, together with a lot of dual progressing prestiges, ending up gaining triple or quadruple caster levels while still attaining 9th level spells/maneuvers/vestiges/powers... Cheesy and TO material, but it's there, so...

Nononono. It says "any" not 'all' there. So it only advances the base ability, not each of the PrCs that modify the base ability. People looking for cheese can try all they want, but that's not what BL was made to do. I would tell you to dig up arcane Dilettante if you want to do that, but apparently I dethroned that one too.

There's always mind mage for ya.

[SorO_Lost]

Bloodlines have continued to be controversial ... (shrug)

It's because they are a poorly written mechanic that originally came from Dragon Mag, a published source not exactly know for knowing the difference between a hole in the ground and their mouths.

Nononono. It says "any" not 'all' there. So it only advances the base ability, not each of the PrCs that modify the base ability. People looking for cheese can try all they want, but that's not what BL was made to do. I would tell you to dig up arcane Dilettante if you want to do that, but apparently I dethroned that one too.

Hotness. We need more people that are willing to really into into the rules and how mechanics are handled. I swear 95% of peoples "tricks" are based oversights to begin with.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

I agree on the typical editing problems,
especially since they could have cleared
this up, but like lots of things, they didn't.

Lurk and Divine Mind are hardly at danger
of reaching some sort of T.O. threshold.

The example in the d20srd Bloodlines
section is Sorc 3 / Monk 3 / Bloodline 2.
Change Sorc to Divine Mind.
Change Monk to Legacy Champ ... (assumes standard qualifying worked)
The calculation is "level" based.
I count (3+2) + (2+2) = 9 for some things.

[SuperThunderCat]

We dont have the book. :/

Edit: Well this ended up in the wrong thread.... just ignore this post

[widow]

Legacy Champion works just fine for progressing a dual progress PrC.  There is some debate though on if you can advance a PrC beyond it's normal 10 levels pre-epic with class advancement abilities from the legacy Champion.  It seems that it should work by RAW, but your DM might have other ideas.   

It is quite fun to take blood lines and advance them with Legacy champion or Uncanny trickster for certain builds.

If it works by RAW than my DM should approve.

That's something that I don't understand ... why would you bother using Legacy Champion to advance bloodlines? In the write up of bloodlines (I am assuming you mean that ones that appear in UA) it specifically states, for spellcasters, that you only receive an increase in caster level not spells per day or slots. Is this correct or am I missing a part of the equation?

Cheers
Volf

Correct, but they advance *all* caster levels, manifester levels, maneuver levels & binder levels... This is used in a cheesy manner to get triple 9's builds with fast progressing classes like Beholder Mage, Apostle of Peace, etc, together with a lot of dual progressing prestiges, ending up gaining triple or quadruple caster levels while still attaining 9th level spells/maneuvers/vestiges/powers... Cheesy and TO material, but it's there, so...

Never stated that advancing bloodlines with uncanny trickster in turn advances uncanny trickster further (uncanny trickerster ability is not level based).  It is very possible thought to have a build with multiple level based effects that bloodlines would work with.  For instance a Fiend of Possession with Hellfire warlock or thrallherd levels would have both of the enhancement ability of the Fiend and the other class instead of just one.  Most builds though you would be better off advancing a class if new abilities would be granted (casting progression, bonus feats, etc). 

[Volfogg]

Legacy Champion works just fine for progressing a dual progress PrC.  There is some debate though on if you can advance a PrC beyond it's normal 10 levels pre-epic with class advancement abilities from the legacy Champion.  It seems that it should work by RAW, but your DM might have other ideas.   

It is quite fun to take blood lines and advance them with Legacy champion or Uncanny trickster for certain builds.

If it works by RAW than my DM should approve.

That's something that I don't understand ... why would you bother using Legacy Champion to advance bloodlines? In the write up of bloodlines (I am assuming you mean that ones that appear in UA) it specifically states, for spellcasters, that you only receive an increase in caster level not spells per day or slots. Is this correct or am I missing a part of the equation?

Cheers
Volf

Correct, but they advance *all* caster levels, manifester levels, maneuver levels & binder levels... This is used in a cheesy manner to get triple 9's builds with fast progressing classes like Beholder Mage, Apostle of Peace, etc, together with a lot of dual progressing prestiges, ending up gaining triple or quadruple caster levels while still attaining 9th level spells/maneuvers/vestiges/powers... Cheesy and TO material, but it's there, so...

Never stated that advancing bloodlines with uncanny trickster in turn advances uncanny trickster further (uncanny trickerster ability is not level based).  It is very possible thought to have a build with multiple level based effects that bloodlines would work with.  For instance a Fiend of Possession with Hellfire warlock or thrallherd levels would have both of the enhancement ability of the Fiend and the other class instead of just one.  Most builds though you would be better off advancing a class if new abilities would be granted (casting progression, bonus feats, etc).

It's apparent that this trick could produce some pretty darn spiffy builds (such as those above), however. I guess the main hurdle is if your DM is willing to allow a character with such powerful potential.

Many thanks to all the folks that posted in this thread. It was definitely an eye opener for me.

Cheers
Volf

[awaken_D_M_golem]

  we are one big-bad-evil-guy family here.
Disagreements aside ... you can always eyeball
how good or bad or bad (good) something is.

The example Divine Mind above could "arguably"
have either a 45' or 35' aura ; still not do much.
One of the aura powers give a bonus to Knowledge
checks at a rate of +1 per 6 levels.  This does not
equal Polymorph.  But they happen at the same level.

[Volfogg]

we are one big-bad-evil-guy family here.
Disagreements aside ... you can always eyeball
how good or bad or bad (good) something is.

The example Divine Mind above could "arguably"
have either a 45' or 35' aura ; still not do much.
One of the aura powers give a bonus to Knowledge
checks at a rate of +1 per 6 levels.  This does not
equal Polymorph.  But they happen at the same level.

This is so freaking awesome I had to reply! Now with this little gem here I am thinking a group composed of Intelligence focused individuals that each have the Knowledge Devotion (and somehow have the requisite access to knowledge skills) feat. With the above Divine Mind trick it could make for a pretty freaking scary crew. It's like an aura that grants the "speedball" equivalent of the Weapon Focus feat.  Although I know this is not that awesomely good but its still pretty spiffy as Knowledge Devotion applies to ranged attacks as well (iirc). Maybe throw in a Marshal with the right aura (motivate intelligence) and the groups bonus to knowledge skills should be pretty damn impressive.

Cheers
Volf